Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD

[Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>]

Mike just sent around the lab an early document from LCHC (1982) that
articulates an early vision of what the 5th Dimension spaces were all
about. Interestingly, the paper poses the question: "Why are learning
disabilities so often identified only when a person is in school?" I think
that this is precisely the kind of question that Liz seems to be pointing
to, albeit on a slightly larger scale (i.e. she appears to be looking
across much larger contexts than "school").

Tying back to my prior post about "seeing" vis a vis aesthetic experience,
I think there is something quite similar going on here. Just as history and
sociocultural context make it possible to "see" a work of art in a
particular way, so too do these kinds of things make it possible to "see"
other people in particular ways.

The argument here is that cultural context is constitutive of WHO someone
IS, because it makes it possible for that person to be SEEN in particular
ways. If schizophrenics are SEEN as having a unique access to the divine
(which, in a Durkheimian sense, I think they do - b.c. of their heightened
awareness of the poetics of language, cf. Jim Goss, an LCHC lurker, who
works on the poetics of schizophrenics), then, in that culture, are they
really "schizophrenic" as we know it? If their "delusions of grandeur" are
seen as contact with an other worldly realm, then how does this change WHO
they are? The argument here is that this kind of social seeing (aka
"recognition") matters.

In addition to these social forms of recognition qua classes of people,
there are more micro-interactional cultural practices that seem to make a
substantial difference (here I step away from "recognition" and into
micro-interaction). I once saw Elinor Ochs present some fascinating work on
low functioning autistics in the U.S. vs. India. She was arguing that very
small difference in habitus-as-interactional styles made a major difference
to outcomes for the autistic children. In the U.S., when teaching these
students, teachers would sit facing these students and would insist on eye
contact ("look at me"). The woman that she studied in India took a
completely different approach. She would sit alongside the child and would
have joint gaze with the child at some third thing, e.g. a book. For
writing, she would place her hands with his on the keyboard as he typed and
would orient ALONGSIDE of him. The differences in functioning were
striking. Where the U.S. kids were barely learning to talk, the child in
India was writing books. I'm sure that the picture is not quite so simple
as this, and maybe some more familiar with the literature will be able to
say more (I think the India case was a famous one), but I think that the
argument is an interesting one to consider how very local social context,
i.e. the face-to-face and explicit instruction, as a cultural pattern (I
suspect this is true of how most U.S. schoolteachers approach students) can
make a dramatic difference.

Scaffolding seems like a good way to think about this, but it seems that in
doing so, we should recognize that we all live in social contexts that
scaffold us up in various ways such that if we were in a different context
that lacked the ongoingly present scaffoldings of our present culture, we
might turn out to have, perhaps biologically based, "conditions" (which the
locals would likely call "disorders").

The question quickly becomes a micro- macro- question about cultural
practices, cultural beliefs, histories, and institutions. Returning to the
5th D mention at the beginning of this post, I think this speaks
particularly well to the current interest in designing meso-level
organizations. The meso- level organizations are those that exist most
proximally to the people who are around the child. The 5th Dimension
programs provide something of an ideal-type meso-level organization.

But both sides of the meso- are important. How does the meso- organize the
micro-? and on the other hand, how does the macro- constrain or enable the
meso-?

So, with autism, we might ask: how can we create meso-level contexts that
will support persons on the autistism spectrum, particularly the so-called
"low-functioning" autistics? What would such an intervention look like.

Liz, maybe you have some sense for this? Perhaps an example or two?

-greg
P.s. on a different note, I was just reading Pickering's work where he
describes R. D. Laing's Kingsley Hall: "Kingsley Hall was thought of as a
space of revealing, where, as Laing put it, the sane could learn to go mad
from the mad, where new sorts of selves could emerge." Seems like it would
be a nice exercise to imagine learning how to be autistic.

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:

> My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and is being
> treated/educated under that label), and my father had processing
> difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a responsive,
> turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a  successful
> innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself, who also has
> processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps me understand
> how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and culturally
> reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or does not
> have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe. One loses many
> social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to society's
> current demarcation point work very hard to simulate normative
> functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral spectrum
> between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled. My son's
> degree of autism precludes him from participating effectively in
> self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history, society's
> demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater numbers of
> individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is that the recent
> uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted for entirely in
> sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is going on.
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments aside (which are
> way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to a full
> discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum of two
> (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-historical
> perspective to support the suggestion that social/cultural/historical
> conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of autistic
> spectrum disorders:
> 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum - widely
> understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including the role of
> learning as leading development); and
> 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of being
> 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture in context,
> that is (with some
> imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits may have had
> value to a particular group, but in western society, these traits become
> redundant.
>
> My understanding of autism is limited, but these points describe my
> understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive amount of
> time studying.
> Cheers,
> Deborah
>
>
> Deborah Rockstroh
> Southern Cross University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a nice job of
> noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and real attention
> to people's differential makeups.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-autism-wars.html?_r
> =1&p
> artner=rss&emc=rss>
>
> On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>
> > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from being
> > documented. p
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> >
> > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the list, where I
> > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking into CHAT (at
> > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the subject) as a way of
>
> > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions might be
> > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions. Peter, I am
> > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my question out
>
> > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
> > group: Do you think there is any possibility that contemporary
> > conditions
> might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of autism spectrum
> disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in particular of
> factors such as the individualization of society, the need to adhere to
> social norms that are less explicit/structured and more based on
> flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place, and the
> increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of socialization).
> So,for example, the two observations David made (that people may be
> losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning at the same
> time that there is a heightened demand for facility with decentered
> discourses) might be causing more people not only to be DIAGNOSED, but
> also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward and
> excessively "rote".
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Elizabeth Fein, MA
> > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of Comparative Human
>
> > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
> > (773)860-7275
> >
> >
> > ---- Original message ----
> >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
> > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The increase in
> > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder, you buy into
>
> > the deficit view of mental health difference) is generally attributed
> > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued research into
> > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as someone on
> > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my family). I've had
> > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more in press and
> > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to write them). I'd
> > be happy to share with others any of the following, if you write me
> > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but couldn't make the
> > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
> >>
> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
> > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality,
> extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 113,
> 1701-1732.
> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky, "defectology,"
> > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural
> stream.
> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
> >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has his
> > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question
>
> > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and
> > Social Interaction
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >>
> >> Larry,
> >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism Spectrum
> > Disorder"
> >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
> >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a wonderful
> > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by ourselves?)].
> >> -greg
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
> > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
> >>>
> >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism [page
> > 3] when he
> >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and a
> > lack of
> >>> differentiation of viewponts.  He gives the example of the
> > beginning
> >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures were
> >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*, so to
> > say,
> >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second example
> > Piaget gives
> >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the shoes of
> > the other
> >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
> > convince the other *on his own ground*.
> >>>
> >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
> > continuing
> >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if this
> > ability
> >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can be
> > viewed as an
> >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain dialogical
> > *ways* of
> >>> expression.
> >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in our
> > current
> >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming more
> >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all residences
> > in New York
> >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be  having the
> > unintended
> >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
> > *social* reasoning.
> >>>
> >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living alone
> > requires
> >>> more
> >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
> > novel
> >>> discursive situations.
> >>>
> >>> Just wondering.
> >>>
> >>> Larry
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
> >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike:
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet Archive
> > is missing
> >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
> > complete in places.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
> > translation. The
> >>>> boxes
> >>> are
> >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
> > doing T&S in
> >>> Korean.
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I was
> > trying to
> >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
> > myself.
> >>>> Besides that,
> >>> the
> >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
> > favorable)
> >>> references
> >>>> in HDHMF.
> >>>>
> >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
> > indebted to
> >>> Volkelt,
> >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis into
> > units and
> >>> analysis
> >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
> > idea that
> >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
> > and
> >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
> > it's not
> >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
> > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
> >>>>
> >>>> David Kellogg
> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought and
> > Language
> >>>> from 1962?
> >>>> mike
> >>>> __________________________________________
> >>>> _____
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> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> >>>>
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> >>>> _____
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
> >> Human Cognition Department of
> > Communication University of California, San Diego
> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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-- 
Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
Department of Communication
University of California, San Diego
http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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