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Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
Greg, et al, my experience is that meso-level organizations
absolutely can go a long way toward scaffolding the
development of a wider range of social practices (including
those that function as competencies in the wider culture) in
people on the autism spectrum. I have a lot more experience
with people on the "higher-functioning" end of the spectrum
(which basically means people who use spoken language fluently
and have approximately normal-range or above IQ - it doesn't
say a lot about how well one is actually able to function in
regular life). But I can give a few examples of very rich and
successful (teaching-wise, not financially; most of them have
gone out of business) meso-level organizations, both those
deliberately crafted and those that emerged as subcultures
around specific interests or practices.
Science fiction fandom and live-action roleplaying games
(LARPing) are two such communities. At many sci-fi cons,
social interaction is structured around topics and activities
of interest, and social bonds can be formed based on whether
you have and can share expert knowledge. This is a huge change
from "mundane" sociality where social life tends to appear
free-form and in fact be structured by expectations that are
implicit rather than explicit, and where social bonds are
often formed based on inspiring certain affective states in
the other person. There is also an ethic of acceptance that
includes a broader range of behaviors that might elsewhere be
thought of as odd.
Some organizations have tried to deliberately create this
ethos in a treatment setting. I worked one summer at a
delightful summer camp (and I've written about it here:
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/b9f09939#/b9f09939/48) .
It was a collaboration between a community center for people
on the spectrum based on principles of autistic culture and
self-advocacy, and a collective of youth passionate about
swords-and-sorcery style role-playing games as a means of
personal transformation. This was as exhausting and weird and
wonderful as one might imagine. I'm currently trying to
develop a program like this at the group practice I'm working
at in Northbrook, IL, SociAbility. It's hard to do without the
infrastructure and socialization already done by these two
organizations and their long history of cultivating particular
skills and dispositions - but I'm trying.
Interestingly enough, I am writing this email from a hotel
room in Cleveland, where I am attending Notacon, "an annual
event that focuses on people who like to build, make, break
and hack stuff" that "focuses on technologies, philosophy and
creativity often overlooked at other hacker conferences".
There's a lot of talk about how to raise children who learn
differently "as hackers". I'm curious to learn whether hacker
spaces could be another such scaffolded space.
Greg, thank you for asking these questions that give me the
opportunity to rant about stuff I'm excited about!
Elizabeth
>Mike just sent around the lab an early document from LCHC
(1982) that
>articulates an early vision of what the 5th Dimension spaces
were all
>about. Interestingly, the paper poses the question: "Why are
learning
>disabilities so often identified only when a person is in
school?" I think
>that this is precisely the kind of question that Liz seems to
be pointing
>to, albeit on a slightly larger scale (i.e. she appears to be
looking
>across much larger contexts than "school").
>
>Tying back to my prior post about "seeing" vis a vis
aesthetic experience,
>I think there is something quite similar going on here. Just
as history and
>sociocultural context make it possible to "see" a work of art
in a
>particular way, so too do these kinds of things make it
possible to "see"
>other people in particular ways.
>
>The argument here is that cultural context is constitutive of
WHO someone
>IS, because it makes it possible for that person to be SEEN
in particular
>ways. If schizophrenics are SEEN as having a unique access to
the divine
>(which, in a Durkheimian sense, I think they do - b.c. of
their heightened
>awareness of the poetics of language, cf. Jim Goss, an LCHC
lurker, who
>works on the poetics of schizophrenics), then, in that
culture, are they
>really "schizophrenic" as we know it? If their "delusions of
grandeur" are
>seen as contact with an other worldly realm, then how does
this change WHO
>they are? The argument here is that this kind of social
seeing (aka
>"recognition") matters.
>
>In addition to these social forms of recognition qua classes
of people,
>there are more micro-interactional cultural practices that
seem to make a
>substantial difference (here I step away from "recognition"
and into
>micro-interaction). I once saw Elinor Ochs present some
fascinating work on
>low functioning autistics in the U.S. vs. India. She was
arguing that very
>small difference in habitus-as-interactional styles made a
major difference
>to outcomes for the autistic children. In the U.S., when
teaching these
>students, teachers would sit facing these students and would
insist on eye
>contact ("look at me"). The woman that she studied in India
took a
>completely different approach. She would sit alongside the
child and would
>have joint gaze with the child at some third thing, e.g. a
book. For
>writing, she would place her hands with his on the keyboard
as he typed and
>would orient ALONGSIDE of him. The differences in functioning
were
>striking. Where the U.S. kids were barely learning to talk,
the child in
>India was writing books. I'm sure that the picture is not
quite so simple
>as this, and maybe some more familiar with the literature
will be able to
>say more (I think the India case was a famous one), but I
think that the
>argument is an interesting one to consider how very local
social context,
>i.e. the face-to-face and explicit instruction, as a cultural
pattern (I
>suspect this is true of how most U.S. schoolteachers approach
students) can
>make a dramatic difference.
>
>Scaffolding seems like a good way to think about this, but it
seems that in
>doing so, we should recognize that we all live in social
contexts that
>scaffold us up in various ways such that if we were in a
different context
>that lacked the ongoingly present scaffoldings of our present
culture, we
>might turn out to have, perhaps biologically based,
"conditions" (which the
>locals would likely call "disorders").
>
>The question quickly becomes a micro- macro- question about
cultural
>practices, cultural beliefs, histories, and institutions.
Returning to the
>5th D mention at the beginning of this post, I think this
speaks
>particularly well to the current interest in designing meso-
level
>organizations. The meso- level organizations are those that
exist most
>proximally to the people who are around the child. The 5th
Dimension
>programs provide something of an ideal-type meso-level
organization.
>
>But both sides of the meso- are important. How does the meso-
organize the
>micro-? and on the other hand, how does the macro- constrain
or enable the
>meso-?
>
>So, with autism, we might ask: how can we create meso-level
contexts that
>will support persons on the autistism spectrum, particularly
the so-called
>"low-functioning" autistics? What would such an intervention
look like.
>
>Liz, maybe you have some sense for this? Perhaps an example
or two?
>
>-greg
>P.s. on a different note, I was just reading Pickering's work
where he
>describes R. D. Laing's Kingsley Hall: "Kingsley Hall was
thought of as a
>space of revealing, where, as Laing put it, the sane could
learn to go mad
>from the mad, where new sorts of selves could emerge." Seems
like it would
>be a nice exercise to imagine learning how to be autistic.
>
>On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner
<dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
>> My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and
is being
>> treated/educated under that label), and my father had
processing
>> difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a
responsive,
>> turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a
successful
>> innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself,
who also has
>> processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps
me understand
>> how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and
culturally
>> reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or
does not
>> have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe.
One loses many
>> social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to
society's
>> current demarcation point work very hard to simulate
normative
>> functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral
spectrum
>> between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled.
My son's
>> degree of autism precludes him from participating
effectively in
>> self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history,
society's
>> demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater
numbers of
>> individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is
that the recent
>> uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted
for entirely in
>> sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is
going on.
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments
aside (which are
>> way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to
a full
>> discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum
of two
>> (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-
historical
>> perspective to support the suggestion that
social/cultural/historical
>> conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of
autistic
>> spectrum disorders:
>> 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum
- widely
>> understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including
the role of
>> learning as leading development); and
>> 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of
being
>> 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture
in context,
>> that is (with some
>> imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits
may have had
>> value to a particular group, but in western society, these
traits become
>> redundant.
>>
>> My understanding of autism is limited, but these points
describe my
>> understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive
amount of
>> time studying.
>> Cheers,
>> Deborah
>>
>>
>> Deborah Rockstroh
>> Southern Cross University
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
>> Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a
nice job of
>> noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and
real attention
>> to people's differential makeups.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-
autism-wars.html?_r
>> =1&p
>> artner=rss&emc=rss>
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>
>> > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from
being
>> > documented. p
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
>> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>> >
>> > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the
list, where I
>> > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking
into CHAT (at
>> > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the
subject) as a way of
>>
>> > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions
might be
>> > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions.
Peter, I am
>> > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my
question out
>>
>> > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
>> > group: Do you think there is any possibility that
contemporary
>> > conditions
>> might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of
autism spectrum
>> disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in
particular of
>> factors such as the individualization of society, the need
to adhere to
>> social norms that are less explicit/structured and more
based on
>> flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place,
and the
>> increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of
socialization).
>> So,for example, the two observations David made (that
people may be
>> losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning
at the same
>> time that there is a heightened demand for facility with
decentered
>> discourses) might be causing more people not only to be
DIAGNOSED, but
>> also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward
and
>> excessively "rote".
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Elizabeth Fein, MA
>> > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of
Comparative Human
>>
>> > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
>> > (773)860-7275
>> >
>> >
>> > ---- Original message ----
>> >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
>> > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
>> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>
>> >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The
increase in
>> > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder,
you buy into
>>
>> > the deficit view of mental health difference) is
generally attributed
>> > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued
research into
>> > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as
someone on
>> > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my
family). I've had
>> > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more
in press and
>> > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to
write them). I'd
>> > be happy to share with others any of the following, if
you write me
>> > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but
couldn't make the
>> > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
>> >>
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
>> > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of
neuroatypicality,
>> extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record,
113,
>> 1701-1732.
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky,
"defectology,"
>> > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader
cultural
>> stream.
>> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has
his
>> > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to
the question
>>
>> > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning,
Culture and
>> > Social Interaction
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>
>> >> Larry,
>> >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism
Spectrum
>> > Disorder"
>> >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
>> >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a
wonderful
>> > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by
ourselves?)].
>> >> -greg
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
>> > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
>> >>>
>> >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism
[page
>> > 3] when he
>> >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and
a
>> > lack of
>> >>> differentiation of viewponts. He gives the example of
the
>> > beginning
>> >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures
were
>> >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*,
so to
>> > say,
>> >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second
example
>> > Piaget gives
>> >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the
shoes of
>> > the other
>> >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
>> > convince the other *on his own ground*.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
>> > continuing
>> >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if
this
>> > ability
>> >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can
be
>> > viewed as an
>> >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain
dialogical
>> > *ways* of
>> >>> expression.
>> >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in
our
>> > current
>> >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming
more
>> >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all
residences
>> > in New York
>> >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be having
the
>> > unintended
>> >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
>> > *social* reasoning.
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living
alone
>> > requires
>> >>> more
>> >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
>> > novel
>> >>> discursive situations.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just wondering.
>> >>>
>> >>> Larry
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
>> >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mike:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet
Archive
>> > is missing
>> >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
>> > complete in places.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
>> > translation. The
>> >>>> boxes
>> >>> are
>> >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
>> > doing T&S in
>> >>> Korean.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I
was
>> > trying to
>> >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
>> > myself.
>> >>>> Besides that,
>> >>> the
>> >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
>> > favorable)
>> >>> references
>> >>>> in HDHMF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
>> > indebted to
>> >>> Volkelt,
>> >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis
into
>> > units and
>> >>> analysis
>> >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
>> > idea that
>> >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
>> > and
>> >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
>> > it's not
>> >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
>> > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David Kellogg
>> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
>> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought
and
>> > Language
>> >>>> from 1962?
>> >>>> mike
>> >>>> __________________________________________
>> >>>> _____
>> >>>> xmca mailing list
>> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________
>> >>>> _____
>> >>>> xmca mailing list
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________
>> >>> _____
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of
Comparative
>> >> Human Cognition Department of
>> > Communication University of California, San Diego
>> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>> >> __________________________________________
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>
>
>--
>Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
>Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
>Department of Communication
>University of California, San Diego
>http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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