Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD

[Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>]

On 9 April 2012 07:22, Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike just sent around the lab an early document from LCHC (1982) that
> articulates an early vision of what the 5th Dimension spaces were all
> about. Interestingly, the paper poses the question: "Why are learning
> disabilities so often identified only when a person is in school?" I think
> that this is precisely the kind of question that Liz seems to be pointing
> to, albeit on a slightly larger scale (i.e. she appears to be looking
> across much larger contexts than "school").
>
> Tying back to my prior post about "seeing" vis a vis aesthetic experience,
> I think there is something quite similar going on here. Just as history and
> sociocultural context make it possible to "see" a work of art in a
> particular way, so too do these kinds of things make it possible to "see"
> other people in particular ways.
>
> The argument here is that cultural context is constitutive of WHO someone
> IS, because it makes it possible for that person to be SEEN in particular
> ways. If schizophrenics are SEEN as having a unique access to the divine
> (which, in a Durkheimian sense, I think they do - b.c. of their heightened
> awareness of the poetics of language, cf. Jim Goss, an LCHC lurker, who
> works on the poetics of schizophrenics), then, in that culture, are they
> really "schizophrenic" as we know it? If their "delusions of grandeur" are
> seen as contact with an other worldly realm, then how does this change WHO
> they are? The argument here is that this kind of social seeing (aka
> "recognition") matters.
>
> In addition to these social forms of recognition qua classes of people,
> there are more micro-interactional cultural practices that seem to make a
> substantial difference (here I step away from "recognition" and into
> micro-interaction). I once saw Elinor Ochs present some fascinating work on
> low functioning autistics in the U.S. vs. India. She was arguing that very
> small difference in habitus-as-interactional styles made a major difference
> to outcomes for the autistic children. In the U.S., when teaching these
> students, teachers would sit facing these students and would insist on eye
> contact ("look at me"). The woman that she studied in India took a
> completely different approach. She would sit alongside the child and would
> have joint gaze with the child at some third thing, e.g. a book. For
> writing, she would place her hands with his on the keyboard as he typed and
> would orient ALONGSIDE of him. The differences in functioning were
> striking. Where the U.S. kids were barely learning to talk, the child in
> India was writing books. I'm sure that the picture is not quite so simple
> as this, and maybe some more familiar with the literature will be able to
> say more (I think the India case was a famous one), but I think that the
> argument is an interesting one to consider how very local social context,
> i.e. the face-to-face and explicit instruction, as a cultural pattern (I
> suspect this is true of how most U.S. schoolteachers approach students) can
> make a dramatic difference.
>
> Scaffolding seems like a good way to think about this, but it seems that in
> doing so, we should recognize that we all live in social contexts that
> scaffold us up in various ways such that if we were in a different context
> that lacked the ongoingly present scaffoldings of our present culture, we
> might turn out to have, perhaps biologically based, "conditions" (which the
> locals would likely call "disorders").
>
> The question quickly becomes a micro- macro- question about cultural
> practices, cultural beliefs, histories, and institutions. Returning to the
> 5th D mention at the beginning of this post, I think this speaks
> particularly well to the current interest in designing meso-level
> organizations. The meso- level organizations are those that exist most
> proximally to the people who are around the child. The 5th Dimension
> programs provide something of an ideal-type meso-level organization.
>
> But both sides of the meso- are important. How does the meso- organize the
> micro-? and on the other hand, how does the macro- constrain or enable the
> meso-?
>
>
The fluidity and non-contingency of the constraint may be a good question
to ask.  How stable does the context need to be and how visible/brittle?

Huw


> So, with autism, we might ask: how can we create meso-level contexts that
> will support persons on the autistism spectrum, particularly the so-called
> "low-functioning" autistics? What would such an intervention look like.
>
> Liz, maybe you have some sense for this? Perhaps an example or two?
>
> -greg
> P.s. on a different note, I was just reading Pickering's work where he
> describes R. D. Laing's Kingsley Hall: "Kingsley Hall was thought of as a
> space of revealing, where, as Laing put it, the sane could learn to go mad
> from the mad, where new sorts of selves could emerge." Seems like it would
> be a nice exercise to imagine learning how to be autistic.
>
> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> > My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and is being
> > treated/educated under that label), and my father had processing
> > difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a responsive,
> > turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a  successful
> > innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself, who also has
> > processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps me understand
> > how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and culturally
> > reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or does not
> > have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe. One loses many
> > social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to society's
> > current demarcation point work very hard to simulate normative
> > functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral spectrum
> > between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled. My son's
> > degree of autism precludes him from participating effectively in
> > self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history, society's
> > demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater numbers of
> > individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is that the recent
> > uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted for entirely in
> > sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is going on.
> > David
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
> > Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
> > To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> >
> > Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments aside (which are
> > way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to a full
> > discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum of two
> > (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-historical
> > perspective to support the suggestion that social/cultural/historical
> > conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of autistic
> > spectrum disorders:
> > 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum - widely
> > understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including the role of
> > learning as leading development); and
> > 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of being
> > 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture in context,
> > that is (with some
> > imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits may have had
> > value to a particular group, but in western society, these traits become
> > redundant.
> >
> > My understanding of autism is limited, but these points describe my
> > understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive amount of
> > time studying.
> > Cheers,
> > Deborah
> >
> >
> > Deborah Rockstroh
> > Southern Cross University
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> > Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> >
> > Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a nice job of
> > noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and real attention
> > to people's differential makeups.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> >
> > <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-autism-wars.html?_r
> > =1&p
> > artner=rss&emc=rss>
> >
> > On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> >
> > > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from being
> > > documented. p
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> > >
> > > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the list, where I
> > > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking into CHAT (at
> > > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the subject) as a way of
> >
> > > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions might be
> > > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions. Peter, I am
> > > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my question out
> >
> > > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
> > > group: Do you think there is any possibility that contemporary
> > > conditions
> > might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of autism spectrum
> > disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in particular of
> > factors such as the individualization of society, the need to adhere to
> > social norms that are less explicit/structured and more based on
> > flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place, and the
> > increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of socialization).
> > So,for example, the two observations David made (that people may be
> > losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning at the same
> > time that there is a heightened demand for facility with decentered
> > discourses) might be causing more people not only to be DIAGNOSED, but
> > also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward and
> > excessively "rote".
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > Elizabeth Fein, MA
> > > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of Comparative Human
> >
> > > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
> > > (773)860-7275
> > >
> > >
> > > ---- Original message ----
> > >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
> > >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
> > > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
> > >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> > >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>
> > >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The increase in
> > > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder, you buy into
> >
> > > the deficit view of mental health difference) is generally attributed
> > > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued research into
> > > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as someone on
> > > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my family). I've had
> > > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more in press and
> > > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to write them). I'd
> > > be happy to share with others any of the following, if you write me
> > > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but couldn't make the
> > > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
> > >>
> > >>      Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
> > > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality,
> > extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 113,
> > 1701-1732.
> > >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky, "defectology,"
> > > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural
> > stream.
> > Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
> > >>      Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has his
> > > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question
> >
> > > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and
> > > Social Interaction
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
> > >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
> > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> > >>
> > >> Larry,
> > >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism Spectrum
> > > Disorder"
> > >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
> > >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a wonderful
> > > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by ourselves?)].
> > >> -greg
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
> > > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
> > >>>
> > >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism [page
> > > 3] when he
> > >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and a
> > > lack of
> > >>> differentiation of viewponts.  He gives the example of the
> > > beginning
> > >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures were
> > >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*, so to
> > > say,
> > >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second example
> > > Piaget gives
> > >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the shoes of
> > > the other
> > >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
> > > convince the other *on his own ground*.
> > >>>
> > >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
> > > continuing
> > >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if this
> > > ability
> > >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can be
> > > viewed as an
> > >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain dialogical
> > > *ways* of
> > >>> expression.
> > >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in our
> > > current
> > >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming more
> > >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all residences
> > > in New York
> > >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be  having the
> > > unintended
> > >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
> > > *social* reasoning.
> > >>>
> > >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living alone
> > > requires
> > >>> more
> > >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
> > > novel
> > >>> discursive situations.
> > >>>
> > >>> Just wondering.
> > >>>
> > >>> Larry
> > >>>
> > >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
> > >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Mike:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet Archive
> > > is missing
> > >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
> > > complete in places.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
> > > translation. The
> > >>>> boxes
> > >>> are
> > >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
> > > doing T&S in
> > >>> Korean.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I was
> > > trying to
> > >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
> > > myself.
> > >>>> Besides that,
> > >>> the
> > >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
> > > favorable)
> > >>> references
> > >>>> in HDHMF.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
> > > indebted to
> > >>> Volkelt,
> > >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis into
> > > units and
> > >>> analysis
> > >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
> > > idea that
> > >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
> > > and
> > >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
> > > it's not
> > >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
> > > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> David Kellogg
> > >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> > >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought and
> > > Language
> > >>>> from 1962?
> > >>>> mike
> > >>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>> _____
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
> > >> Human Cognition Department of
> > > Communication University of California, San Diego
> > > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>
> --
> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar
> Laboratory of Comparative Human Cognition
> Department of Communication
> University of California, San Diego
> http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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