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Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
Elizabeth
you wrote,
So,for example, the two observations David
made (that people may be losing opportunities to learn the art
of social reasoning at the same time that there is a
heightened demand for facility with decentered discourses)
might be causing more people not only to be DIAGNOSED, but
also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward
and excessively "rote".
Asking if autism or ADD/ADHD may be partially explained by David's query I
believe is an aspect of a much larger question that David is asking. I
would frame the question as *ways of life* that are demanding facility with
*decentered* discourses and the multiple and very complex *ways* that
persons who are not skillful in this decentering *capacity* are located in
our society. An example I would offer is a person who will *take
direction* from others and work hard but does not have the *capability* to
*indepently* ASK for work and therefore becomes homeless.
I suspect one factor in this person being homeless is the lack of *skill*
in participating in *decentered* ways of life.
This question may be a *big* question. When a person developmentally [for
whatever reason] struggles to flexibly decenter [and is perceived as
awkward, immature, lazy, etc.] that person is *at risk* for becoming
vulnerable and isolated from meaningful *ways* of life.
Larry
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
> My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and is being
> treated/educated under that label), and my father had processing
> difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a responsive,
> turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a successful
> innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself, who also has
> processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps me understand
> how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and culturally
> reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or does not
> have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe. One loses many
> social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to society's
> current demarcation point work very hard to simulate normative
> functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral spectrum
> between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled. My son's
> degree of autism precludes him from participating effectively in
> self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history, society's
> demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater numbers of
> individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is that the recent
> uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted for entirely in
> sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is going on.
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments aside (which are
> way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to a full
> discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum of two
> (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-historical
> perspective to support the suggestion that social/cultural/historical
> conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of autistic
> spectrum disorders:
> 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum - widely
> understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including the role of
> learning as leading development); and
> 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of being
> 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture in context,
> that is (with some
> imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits may have had
> value to a particular group, but in western society, these traits become
> redundant.
>
> My understanding of autism is limited, but these points describe my
> understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive amount of
> time studying.
> Cheers,
> Deborah
>
>
> Deborah Rockstroh
> Southern Cross University
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a nice job of
> noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and real attention
> to people's differential makeups.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-autism-wars.html?_r
> =1&p
> artner=rss&emc=rss>
>
> On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>
> > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from being
> > documented. p
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
> >
> > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the list, where I
> > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking into CHAT (at
> > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the subject) as a way of
>
> > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions might be
> > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions. Peter, I am
> > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my question out
>
> > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
> > group: Do you think there is any possibility that contemporary
> > conditions
> might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of autism spectrum
> disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in particular of
> factors such as the individualization of society, the need to adhere to
> social norms that are less explicit/structured and more based on
> flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place, and the
> increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of socialization).
> So,for example, the two observations David made (that people may be
> losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning at the same
> time that there is a heightened demand for facility with decentered
> discourses) might be causing more people not only to be DIAGNOSED, but
> also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward and
> excessively "rote".
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Elizabeth Fein, MA
> > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of Comparative Human
>
> > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
> > (773)860-7275
> >
> >
> > ---- Original message ----
> >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
> > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>
> >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The increase in
> > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder, you buy into
>
> > the deficit view of mental health difference) is generally attributed
> > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued research into
> > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as someone on
> > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my family). I've had
> > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more in press and
> > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to write them). I'd
> > be happy to share with others any of the following, if you write me
> > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but couldn't make the
> > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
> >>
> >> Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
> > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of neuroatypicality,
> extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record, 113,
> 1701-1732.
> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky, "defectology,"
> > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader cultural
> stream.
> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has his
> > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to the question
>
> > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning, Culture and
> > Social Interaction
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >>
> >> Larry,
> >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism Spectrum
> > Disorder"
> >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
> >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a wonderful
> > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by ourselves?)].
> >> -greg
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
> > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
> >>>
> >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism [page
> > 3] when he
> >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and a
> > lack of
> >>> differentiation of viewponts. He gives the example of the
> > beginning
> >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures were
> >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*, so to
> > say,
> >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second example
> > Piaget gives
> >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the shoes of
> > the other
> >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
> > convince the other *on his own ground*.
> >>>
> >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
> > continuing
> >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if this
> > ability
> >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can be
> > viewed as an
> >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain dialogical
> > *ways* of
> >>> expression.
> >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in our
> > current
> >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming more
> >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all residences
> > in New York
> >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be having the
> > unintended
> >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
> > *social* reasoning.
> >>>
> >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living alone
> > requires
> >>> more
> >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
> > novel
> >>> discursive situations.
> >>>
> >>> Just wondering.
> >>>
> >>> Larry
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
> >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike:
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet Archive
> > is missing
> >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
> > complete in places.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
> > translation. The
> >>>> boxes
> >>> are
> >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
> > doing T&S in
> >>> Korean.
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I was
> > trying to
> >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
> > myself.
> >>>> Besides that,
> >>> the
> >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
> > favorable)
> >>> references
> >>>> in HDHMF.
> >>>>
> >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
> > indebted to
> >>> Volkelt,
> >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis into
> > units and
> >>> analysis
> >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
> > idea that
> >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
> > and
> >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
> > it's not
> >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
> > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
> >>>>
> >>>> David Kellogg
> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought and
> > Language
> >>>> from 1962?
> >>>> mike
> >>>> __________________________________________
> >>>> _____
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
> >> Human Cognition Department of
> > Communication University of California, San Diego
> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >> __________________________________________
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