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Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
I agree, Larry, that this is a huge developmental question,
and a very important one. I do think that one part of that
process, that's going on right now, is that many of the people
who lack those skills, and appear to have from a very early
age, are getting a diagnosis that 1. entitles them to certain
services and protections, and 2. attributes the problem
entirely to their own characteristics, thus occluding the
social context. I suspect these factors may be feeding back
into each other - people seek out the protection of the
diagnosis, but the cost is ignoring much of the broader social
context that makes such institutional protections necessary in
the first place.
Elizabeth Fein, MA
Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago
Department of Comparative Human Development
Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
(773)860-7275
>
>Asking if autism or ADD/ADHD may be partially explained by
David's query I
>believe is an aspect of a much larger question that David is
asking. I
>would frame the question as *ways of life* that are demanding
facility with
>*decentered* discourses and the multiple and very complex
*ways* that
>persons who are not skillful in this decentering *capacity*
are located in
>our society. An example I would offer is a person who will
*take
>direction* from others and work hard but does not have the
*capability* to
>*indepently* ASK for work and therefore becomes homeless.
>
>I suspect one factor in this person being homeless is the
lack of *skill*
>in participating in *decentered* ways of life.
>This question may be a *big* question. When a person
developmentally [for
>whatever reason] struggles to flexibly decenter [and is
perceived as
>awkward, immature, lazy, etc.] that person is *at risk* for
becoming
>vulnerable and isolated from meaningful *ways* of life.
>
>Larry
>
>On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 7:53 AM, David H Kirshner
<dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
>> My son is high-functioning autistic (has been diagnosed and
is being
>> treated/educated under that label), and my father had
processing
>> difficulties that made it impossible for him to hold a
responsive,
>> turn-taking conversation. Watching my father, who was a
successful
>> innovator in visual motor training for kids, and myself,
who also has
>> processing difficulties, negotiate our social worlds helps
me understand
>> how the autism continuum gets socially constructed and
culturally
>> reified as a binary: a disability that one either does, or
does not
>> have. Social sanctions for autistic behavior are severe.
One loses many
>> social opportunities. As a result those who are closer to
society's
>> current demarcation point work very hard to simulate
normative
>> functioning, creating a fairly wide gap in the behavioral
spectrum
>> between those who "are" and those who "are not" disabled.
My son's
>> degree of autism precludes him from participating
effectively in
>> self-disguise. Presumably, over sociocultural history,
society's
>> demarcation point can shift, placing fewer or greater
numbers of
>> individuals into the disabled category. But my guess is
that the recent
>> uptick in autism diagnosis is too abrupt to be accounted
for entirely in
>> sociohistorical terms. I think something biological is
going on.
>> David
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Deborah Rockstroh
>> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2012 6:15 AM
>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Elizabeth, biological/genetic/neuroscientific arguments
aside (which are
>> way out of my field, but more than likely quite critical to
a full
>> discussion of this topic), I feel sure there are a minimum
of two
>> (academic) arguments that can be framed from the cultural-
historical
>> perspective to support the suggestion that
social/cultural/historical
>> conditions *might be* contributing towards the *rise* of
autistic
>> spectrum disorders:
>> 1) the concept that development does not occur in a vacuum
- widely
>> understood as interaction of nature and nurture (including
the role of
>> learning as leading development); and
>> 2) the notion that those who present the 'symptoms' of
being
>> 'disordered' is itself a construct of a particular culture
in context,
>> that is (with some
>> imagination) in other times and places perhaps such traits
may have had
>> value to a particular group, but in western society, these
traits become
>> redundant.
>>
>> My understanding of autism is limited, but these points
describe my
>> understanding about ADHD/ADD, which I've spent an extensive
amount of
>> time studying.
>> Cheers,
>> Deborah
>>
>>
>> Deborah Rockstroh
>> Southern Cross University
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
>> Sent: Sunday, 8 April 2012 5:28 AM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> Good article, Martin--thanks for sharing. The author does a
nice job of
>> noting the tension between "faddish" hyperdiagnosis and
real attention
>> to people's differential makeups.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
>> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 2:40 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>>
>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/sunday-review/the-
autism-wars.html?_r
>> =1&p
>> artner=rss&emc=rss>
>>
>> On Apr 7, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>
>> > Elizabeth, I'd say it's possible, but a long way from
being
>> > documented. p
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> > On Behalf Of Elizabeth Fein
>> > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 1:09 PM
>> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> > Subject: [xmca] Aspergers/ASD
>> >
>> > This seems like a great time to introduce myself to the
list, where I
>> > have been lurking for a while. I actually began looking
into CHAT (at
>> > Greg's encouragement, after a paper I gave on the
subject) as a way of
>>
>> > understanding how social/cultural/historical conditions
might be
>> > contributing to the rise of autism spectrum conditions.
Peter, I am
>> > looking forward to reading your articles. And I'll put my
question out
>>
>> > there, as I am very curious to hear the responses of this
>> > group: Do you think there is any possibility that
contemporary
>> > conditions
>> might be contributing to the rise in *actual cases* of
autism spectrum
>> disorder (not just their detection). (I'm thinking in
particular of
>> factors such as the individualization of society, the need
to adhere to
>> social norms that are less explicit/structured and more
based on
>> flexibility in order to win and maintain a social place,
and the
>> increased role of mimetic media technology as a means of
socialization).
>> So,for example, the two observations David made (that
people may be
>> losing opportunities to learn the art of social reasoning
at the same
>> time that there is a heightened demand for facility with
decentered
>> discourses) might be causing more people not only to be
DIAGNOSED, but
>> also to DEVELOP in a way that comes off as socially awkward
and
>> excessively "rote".
>> >
>> > Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Elizabeth Fein, MA
>> > Ph.D. Candidate, University of Chicago Department of
Comparative Human
>>
>> > Development Psychology Fellow, SociAbility
>> > (773)860-7275
>> >
>> >
>> > ---- Original message ----
>> >> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:33:36 +0000
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu (on behalf of Peter
>> > Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>)
>> >> Subject: RE: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>
>> >> Greg, I'm puzzled by your autism observation. The
increase in
>> > autism spectrum conditions (and by calling it a disorder,
you buy into
>>
>> > the deficit view of mental health difference) is
generally attributed
>> > to better diagnostic efforts in light of continued
research into
>> > mental health generally, including autism. I say this as
someone on
>> > the spectrum (Asperger's syndrome, which runs in my
family). I've had
>> > one paper published on this topic and have a couple more
in press and
>> > a few more in the conceptual stage (awaiting time to
write them). I'd
>> > be happy to share with others any of the following, if
you write me
>> > off-list. I was supposed to give one at ISCAR but
couldn't make the
>> > trip; I'll give another at AERA next weekend. p
>> >>
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (2011). Confessions of a mad
>> > professor: An autoethnographic consideration of
neuroatypicality,
>> extranormativity, and education. Teachers College Record,
113,
>> 1701-1732.
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). Vygotsky,
"defectology,"
>> > and the inclusion of people of difference in the broader
cultural
>> stream.
>> Journal of Language and Literacy Education.
>> >> Smagorinsky, P. (in press). "Every individual has
his
>> > own insanity": Applying Vygotsky's work on defectology to
the question
>>
>> > of mental health as an issue of inclusion. Learning,
Culture and
>> > Social Interaction
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Greg Thompson
>> >> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2012 11:53 AM
>> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>
>> >> Larry,
>> >> and perhaps the incredibly high rates of "Autism
Spectrum
>> > Disorder"
>> >> diagnosis in the U.S. is a sign of the times?
>> >> [At the very least, it should be noted that it is a
wonderful
>> > fit for the particular here and now that we inhabit (by
ourselves?)].
>> >> -greg
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 4:41 PM, Larry Purss
>> > <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Thanks for the 2 versions of this response by Piaget.
>> >>>
>> >>> I was interested in Piaget's comments on egocentrism
[page
>> > 3] when he
>> >>> was talking about unconscious preferential focusing and
a
>> > lack of
>> >>> differentiation of viewponts. He gives the example of
the
>> > beginning
>> >>> instructor who soon discovers that his first lectures
were
>> >>> incomprehensible because he was *talking to himself*,
so to
>> > say,
>> >>> mindful only of his own point of view. The second
example
>> > Piaget gives
>> >>> is developing the capacity to place oneself in the
shoes of
>> > the other
>> >>> [taking the point of view of one's partner] in order to
>> > convince the other *on his own ground*.
>> >>>
>> >>> As I read Piaget's explanation of egocentrism [and its
>> > continuing
>> >>> expression throughout the lifespan] I was wondering if
this
>> > ability
>> >>> [achievement?] to decenter and shift perspectives can
be
>> > viewed as an
>> >>> *art* form or a *skill* that requires certain
dialogical
>> > *ways* of
>> >>> expression.
>> >>> This leads to further wondering if the *distortions* in
our
>> > current
>> >>> housing arrangements; for example how we are becoming
more
>> >>> *self*-contained and living *solo* [50% of all
residences
>> > in New York
>> >>> city are occupied by a single occupant] may be having
the
>> > unintended
>> >>> consequence that we may be loosing the *art* form of
>> > *social* reasoning.
>> >>>
>> >>> I guess a counter argument could be made that living
alone
>> > requires
>> >>> more
>> >>> *skill* in decentering as we are constantly thrown into
>> > novel
>> >>> discursive situations.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just wondering.
>> >>>
>> >>> Larry
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 PM, David Kellogg
>> >>> <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mike:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Actually, the version up on the Marxists Internet
Archive
>> > is missing
>> >>>> a page and Parsons' translation, although good, is not
>> > complete in places.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Here's a version we did, alongside the standard
>> > translation. The
>> >>>> boxes
>> >>> are
>> >>>> part of a discussion we had in our group when we were
>> > doing T&S in
>> >>> Korean.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I didn't answer your last on Basov, mostly because I
was
>> > trying to
>> >>>> find some Basov beyod what was published in the JREEP
>> > myself.
>> >>>> Besides that,
>> >>> the
>> >>>> only thing I know about Basov is the (generally very
>> > favorable)
>> >>> references
>> >>>> in HDHMF.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What surprises me is that both Basov and Vygotsky are
>> > indebted to
>> >>> Volkelt,
>> >>>> of all people, for the distinction between analysis
into
>> > units and
>> >>> analysis
>> >>>> into elements! And where exactly did Vygotsky get the
>> > idea that
>> >>>> behavior evolves just as organs do, if not from Lorenz
>> > and
>> >>>> Tinbergen? It might be from Jennings, but in Jennings
>> > it's not
>> >>>> exactly behavior itself that evolves; only the
>> > affordances of an organism's internal organs.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> David Kellogg
>> >>>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> >>>> Subject: [xmca] Piaget in Vygotsky 1962
>> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity"
>> > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >>>> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone have a copy of Piaget's piece on Thought
and
>> > Language
>> >>>> from 1962?
>> >>>> mike
>> >>>> __________________________________________
>> >>>> _____
>> >>>> xmca mailing list
>> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >>>>
>> >>>> __________________________________________
>> >>>> _____
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>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> __________________________________________
>> >>> _____
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> >> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of
Comparative
>> >> Human Cognition Department of
>> > Communication University of California, San Diego
>> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>> >> __________________________________________
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