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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
And for thinking about perezhivanie, and adults being able to play, you are
right, Mike -- fulcrum AND pivot give us so much to work with! I wish
Vygotsky had given us one of his wonderful metaphors for perezhivanie ...
Beth
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Larry, the connection with metaphor is fantastic for helping us to think
> about playworlds as process.
>
> Anna, I think I agree with your distinction between pivot and metaphor ...
> I will return to your thesis and then come back to this.
>
> THe funny thing about the robin coming up in this discussion is that
> Monica and I have been talking a lot about robins ... about Kiyo's role as
> the Robin in a playworld in California: going into role in play allows you
> to use the character to pivot out of yourself, is what I have been thinking
> about as I work on the Fakhrutdinova piece on Perezhivanie that Mike sent
> around.
>
> Beth
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On 10 April 2013 14:44, Christine Schweighart <schweighartc@gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > ...
>> >
>> > Robins can be amazing , Huw, one came up to within 20cm of my hands
>> > yesterday - it was looking right up at me ( so I thought), but it's
>> other
>> > eye was looking for worms as I was digging. This took me by surprise -
>> > aesthetic experience often has surprise?- anyway - the robin was quite
>> sure
>> > of itself and not 'tame' or 'domesticated', any more than I on my
>> > allotment was 'tamed' or domesticated by the robin.
>> > Christine.
>> >
>> >
>> I think you have some of my gist of *just*. Don't forget the work-rate
>> too! :)
>>
>> I think the humble robin is good mediator for explaining British culture
>> to
>> civilized Europeans.
>>
>> Best,
>> Huw
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is
>> not
>> > > > "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
>> > > > Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is
>> still
>> > > > imagined!
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the
>> thing(s)
>> > > themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to
>> > > formulating an explicit conception of them.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a
>> > > > Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can
>> > even
>> > > > be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have
>> > some
>> > > "fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned
>> which
>> > > would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > What do you think?
>> > > >
>> > > > Ana
>> > > > ____________________________________
>> > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>> > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
>> > > > Associate Professor of Education
>> > > > Chestnut Hill College
>> > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
>> > > > shaneam@chc.edu
>> > > > Phone: 267-334-2905
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> *From the OED: *
>> > > > >> *
>> > > > >> *
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed,
>> > forming
>> > > > the
>> > > > >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a
>> > > hinge,
>> > > > or
>> > > > >> the end of an axle...*
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point
>> > against
>> > > > >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns
>> or is
>> > > > >> supported.*
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>
>> > > > > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of
>> the
>> > > > stick.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Huw
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> **
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of
>> > your
>> > > > >> interests, Beth.*
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> *
>> > > > >> *
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <
>> > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
>> > > > >>> wrote:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>> fulcrum seems OK
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in
>> > > > relation
>> > > > >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the
>> > prizing
>> > > > of
>> > > > >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can
>> do
>> > > > with a
>> > > > >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>> Best,
>> > > > >>> Huw
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
>> > > > >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express
>> a
>> > > > >> meaning
>> > > > >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a
>> > > thing.
>> > > > >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
>> > > > >>>>> Christine
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>> > > > >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
>> > > > >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной
>> > точкой
>> > > > >>> для
>> > > > >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот
>> критический
>> > > > >>> момент
>> > > > >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
>> > > > >> структур,
>> > > > >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
>> > > > >>>>>> опорная точка-
>> > > > >>>>>> literally: a point of support
>> > > > >>>>>> Bella
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <
>> > bferholt@gmail.com
>> > > >
>> > > > >>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following
>> > paragraph
>> > > > >>> from
>> > > > >>>>> the
>> > > > >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is
>> > best
>> > > > >>>>>> translated
>> > > > >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood
>> > begins
>> > > > >>> to
>> > > > >>>>> be a
>> > > > >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
>> > > > >> begins
>> > > > >>> to
>> > > > >>>>> be
>> > > > >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a
>> reversal of
>> > > > >> the
>> > > > >>>>>> child's
>> > > > >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation
>> that it
>> > > > >> is
>> > > > >>>> hard
>> > > > >>>>>> to
>> > > > >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this
>> all
>> > at
>> > > > >>>> once.
>> > > > >>>>>> It
>> > > > >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the
>> meaning
>> > > > >> of
>> > > > >>> a
>> > > > >>>>>> word)
>> > > > >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this
>> direction. At
>> > > > >>> that
>> > > > >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a
>> > pivot
>> > > > >>> for
>> > > > >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the
>> > basic
>> > > > >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's
>> relationship
>> > to
>> > > > >>>>> reality
>> > > > >>>>>> is
>> > > > >>>>>>> radically altered."
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> Beth
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
>> > > > >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
>> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special
>> term
>> > > > >> for
>> > > > >>>> it,
>> > > > >>>>>> but
>> > > > >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство
>> would be
>> > > > >> a
>> > > > >>>>> proper
>> > > > >>>>>>>> term
>> > > > >>>>>>>> Bella
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <
>> lchcmike@gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > > >>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Yo!!
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their
>> hands
>> > > > >> on
>> > > > >>>> the
>> > > > >>>>>>>> Russian
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot
>> Vygotsky
>> > > > >>>> uses?
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> mike
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
>> > > > >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife
>> and
>> > > > >>> two
>> > > > >>>>>>> glasses
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
>> > > > >> about
>> > > > >>> a
>> > > > >>>>> new
>> > > > >>>>>>>> bridge
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots",
>> "place
>> > > > >>>>> holders"
>> > > > >>>>>>> or
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> something else?
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
>> > > > >>> they
>> > > > >>>> do
>> > > > >>>>>> not
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
>> > > > >>>> conversation.
>> > > > >>>>>> In
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> other
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used
>> metaphorically.
>> > > > >>> In
>> > > > >>>>>>>> metaphor,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
>> > > > >>>>> concept,
>> > > > >>>>>>>> etc.)
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> by
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
>> > > > >> imagine
>> > > > >>>>> what
>> > > > >>>>>>>> could
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic,
>> sci-tech
>> > > > >>>>>>>> possibilities!
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it,
>> started
>> > > > >>>>> playing
>> > > > >>>>>> a
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance
>> "My
>> > > > >>>>> pillow
>> > > > >>>>>> is
>> > > > >>>>>>>> my
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot
>> -
>> > > > >> a
>> > > > >>>>>> holder)
>> > > > >>>>>>> to
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
>> > > > >> place
>> > > > >>>> of
>> > > > >>>>>>> images
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing
>> any
>> > > > >>>>> meaning
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with
>> metaphor.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the
>> meaning
>> > > > >>> is
>> > > > >>>>>>> "hinged"
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> to
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> the object.
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
>> > > > >>> bferholt@gmail.com>
>> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in
>> Swedish
>> > > > >>> the
>> > > > >>>>>> stick
>> > > > >>>>>>>> is
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> a
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
>> > > > >> is a
>> > > > >>>>>> better
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> translation??
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
>> > > > >> was
>> > > > >>>>>> chosen
>> > > > >>>>>>>> -- )
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>> --
>> > > > >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>> > > > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> --
>> > > > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
>> > > > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>> > > > >>>>>>> School of Education
>> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
>> > > > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
>> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
>> > > > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>> > > > >>>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>>> --
>> > > > >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>> > > > >>>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > >>>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>>> _____
>> > > > >>>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>>> --
>> > > > >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>> > > > >>>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>>> _____
>> > > > >>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>>
>> > > > >>> __________________________________________
>> > > > >>> _____
>> > > > >>> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>>
>> > > > >> __________________________________________
>> > > > >> _____
>> > > > >> xmca mailing list
>> > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > > >>
>> > > > > __________________________________________
>> > > > > _____
>> > > > > xmca mailing list
>> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >
>> > > > __________________________________________
>> > > > _____
>> > > > xmca mailing list
>> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >
>> > > __________________________________________
>> > > _____
>> > > xmca mailing list
>> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
>> > __________________________________________
>> > _____
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Beth Ferholt
> Assistant Professor
> School of Education
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> Fax: (718) 951-4816
>
--
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
School of Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816
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