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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
In play - through attitude/ mood - here 'the play' (and its tasks set
through a kind of emotional capacity) is framed as developmentally genetic.
Davidov mentions kinds of activity - work (labour which produces);
artistic; activity in the field of morals and law; and then he suggests
sport - and play as 'activity'. So play's transformation is of social
reality.
Meaning (in a material reading) isn''t so much 'severed from the material'
(as in 'into a synonym of the idea'; just' an idea; or 'mental concept')-
as broadened ( as synomym of substance) still containing notion of horse,
broadened in use to transform social relations in play.
There appear to be different aspects 'terms' and notion of horse; 'concept
of horse' as a particular through which to examine germ cell of development
of thinking in play activity ; emotions which enable setting of vital
tasks, and motive of play. Overwhelming!...
Robins can be amazing , Huw, one came up to within 20cm of my hands
yesterday - it was looking right up at me ( so I thought), but it's other
eye was looking for worms as I was digging. This took me by surprise -
aesthetic experience often has surprise?- anyway - the robin was quite sure
of itself and not 'tame' or 'domesticated', any more than I on my
allotment was 'tamed' or domesticated by the robin.
Christine.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
> On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is not
> > "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
> > Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is still
> > imagined!
> >
> >
> The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the thing(s)
> themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to
> formulating an explicit conception of them.
>
>
> > But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a
> > Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can even
> > be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
> >
> >
> Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have some
> "fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned which
> would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play.
>
>
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Ana
> > ____________________________________
> > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > Associate Professor of Education
> > Chestnut Hill College
> > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > shaneam@chc.edu
> > Phone: 267-334-2905
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> *From the OED: *
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >>
> > >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed, forming
> > the
> > >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a
> hinge,
> > or
> > >> the end of an axle...*
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point against
> > >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or is
> > >> supported.*
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of the
> > stick.
> > >
> > > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
> > >
> > > Huw
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> **
> > >>
> > >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of your
> > >> interests, Beth.*
> > >>
> > >> *
> > >> *
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> fulcrum seems OK
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
> > >>>
> > >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in
> > relation
> > >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
> > >>>
> > >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the prizing
> > of
> > >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do
> > with a
> > >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
> > >>>
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Huw
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> > >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a
> > >> meaning
> > >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a
> thing.
> > >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> > >>>>> Christine
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой
> > >>> для
> > >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический
> > >>> момент
> > >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
> > >> структур,
> > >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > >>>>>> опорная точка-
> > >>>>>> literally: a point of support
> > >>>>>> Bella
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com
> >
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph
> > >>> from
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
> > >>>>>> translated
> > >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> be a
> > >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
> > >> begins
> > >>> to
> > >>>>> be
> > >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of
> > >> the
> > >>>>>> child's
> > >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it
> > >> is
> > >>>> hard
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at
> > >>>> once.
> > >>>>>> It
> > >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning
> > >> of
> > >>> a
> > >>>>>> word)
> > >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At
> > >>> that
> > >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot
> > >>> for
> > >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
> > >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
> > >>>>> reality
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>> radically altered."
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Beth
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special term
> > >> for
> > >>>> it,
> > >>>>>> but
> > >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be
> > >> a
> > >>>>> proper
> > >>>>>>>> term
> > >>>>>>>> Bella
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Yo!!
> > >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands
> > >> on
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>>> Russian
> > >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
> > >>>> uses?
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> mike
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
> > >>> two
> > >>>>>>> glasses
> > >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
> > >> about
> > >>> a
> > >>>>> new
> > >>>>>>>> bridge
> > >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> > >>>>> holders"
> > >>>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>>>>> something else?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
> > >>> they
> > >>>> do
> > >>>>>> not
> > >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> > >>>> conversation.
> > >>>>>> In
> > >>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically.
> > >>> In
> > >>>>>>>> metaphor,
> > >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> > >>>>> concept,
> > >>>>>>>> etc.)
> > >>>>>>>>> by
> > >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
> > >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
> > >> imagine
> > >>>>> what
> > >>>>>>>> could
> > >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > >>>>>>>> possibilities!
> > >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> > >>>>> playing
> > >>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> > >>>>> pillow
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>> my
> > >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot -
> > >> a
> > >>>>>> holder)
> > >>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
> > >> place
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>>> images
> > >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> > >>>>> meaning
> > >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
> > >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning
> > >>> is
> > >>>>>>> "hinged"
> > >>>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>> the object.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Ana
> > >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
> > >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
> > >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
> > >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> > >>> bferholt@gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
> > >>> the
> > >>>>>> stick
> > >>>>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
> > >> is a
> > >>>>>> better
> > >>>>>>>>>>> translation??
> > >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
> > >> was
> > >>>>>> chosen
> > >>>>>>>> -- )
> > >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth
> > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > >>>>>>> School of Education
> > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > >>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>>> _____
> > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>>> _____
> > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > >>>> __________________________________________
> > >>>> _____
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>>
> > >>> __________________________________________
> > >>> _____
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> > >>>
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> > >>
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> >
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