Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

*From the OED:  *
*
*

*Pivot  ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed, forming the
centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a hinge, or
the end of an axle...*



*Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point against
which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or is
supported.*


**

*What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of your
interests, Beth.*

*
*

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > fulcrum seems OK
> >
> >
> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
>
> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in relation
> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
>
> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the prizing of
> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can do with a
> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
>
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> > schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a meaning
> > > something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a thing.
> > > http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> > > Christine
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > > >  "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой
> для
> > > > отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический
> момент
> > > > коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических структур,
> > > > определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > > > опорная точка-
> > > >  literally: a point of support
> > > > Bella
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > > > >
> > > > > Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph
> from
> > > the
> > > > > chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
> > > > translated
> > > > > as a type of tool?  Which type -- ?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins
> to
> > > be a
> > > > > doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules begins
> to
> > > be
> > > > > determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of the
> > > > child's
> > > > > relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it is
> > hard
> > > > to
> > > > > evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at
> > once.
> > > > It
> > > > > is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning of
> a
> > > > word)
> > > > > from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At
> that
> > > > > critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot
> for
> > > > > severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
> > > > > psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
> > > reality
> > > > is
> > > > > radically altered."
> > > > >
> > > > > Beth
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In the original paper on play I have not found a special term for
> > it,
> > > > but
> > > > > > in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be a
> > > proper
> > > > > > term
> > > > > > Bella
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yo!!
> > > > > > > Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands on
> > the
> > > > > > Russian
> > > > > > > essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky
> > uses?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > > > > anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Beth and Monica,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
> two
> > > > > glasses
> > > > > > > > that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk about
> a
> > > new
> > > > > > bridge
> > > > > > > > they are planning to build.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> > > holders"
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > > something else?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
> they
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> > conversation.
> > > > In
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically.
> In
> > > > > > metaphor,
> > > > > > > > you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> > > concept,
> > > > > > etc.)
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > calling it a different name.
> > > > > > > > "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you, imagine
> > > what
> > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > > > > > possibilities!
> > > > > > > > But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> > > playing
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> > > pillow
> > > > is
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot - a
> > > > holder)
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the place
> > of
> > > > > images
> > > > > > > > and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> > > meaning
> > > > > > > "ABOUT"
> > > > > > > > these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > > > > > > > "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning
> is
> > > > > "hinged"
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > the object.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ana
> > > > > > > > ____________________________________
> > > > > > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > > > > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > > > > > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > > > > > > Chestnut Hill College
> > > > > > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >                 shaneam@chc.edu
> > > > > > > > Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
> the
> > > > stick
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think is a
> > > > better
> > > > > > > > > translation??
> > > > > > > > > (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier was
> > > > chosen
> > > > > > -- )
> > > > > > > > > THank you for the help,
> > > > > > > > > Beth
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > School of Education
> > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > >
> > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
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