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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
fulcrum seems OK
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a meaning
> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a thing.
> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> Christine
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной точкой для
> > отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот критический момент
> > коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических структур,
> > определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > опорная точка-
> > literally: a point of support
> > Bella
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > >
> > > Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following paragraph from
> the
> > > chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is best
> > translated
> > > as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> > >
> > > "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood begins to
> be a
> > > doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules begins to
> be
> > > determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal of the
> > child's
> > > relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that it is hard
> > to
> > > evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this all at once.
> > It
> > > is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the meaning of a
> > word)
> > > from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction. At that
> > > critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a pivot for
> > > severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the basic
> > > psychological structures determining the child's relationship to
> reality
> > is
> > > radically altered."
> > >
> > > Beth
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the original paper on play I have not found a special term for it,
> > but
> > > > in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would be a
> proper
> > > > term
> > > > Bella
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yo!!
> > > > > Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands on the
> > > > Russian
> > > > > essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot Vygotsky uses?
> > > > >
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > > anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Beth and Monica,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that you should see how would you call a knife and two
> > > glasses
> > > > > > that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk about a
> new
> > > > bridge
> > > > > > they are planning to build.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> holders"
> > > or
> > > > > > something else?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because they do
> > not
> > > > > > CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this conversation.
> > In
> > > > > other
> > > > > > words, I don't think these objects are used metaphorically. In
> > > > metaphor,
> > > > > > you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> concept,
> > > > etc.)
> > > > > by
> > > > > > calling it a different name.
> > > > > > "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you, imagine
> what
> > > > could
> > > > > > that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > > > possibilities!
> > > > > > But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> playing
> > a
> > > > > > version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance "My
> pillow
> > is
> > > > my
> > > > > > spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot - a
> > holder)
> > > to
> > > > > > play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the place of
> > > images
> > > > > > and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing any
> meaning
> > > > > "ABOUT"
> > > > > > these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > > > > > "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the meaning is
> > > "hinged"
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the object.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ana
> > > > > > ____________________________________
> > > > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > > > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > > > > Chestnut Hill College
> > > > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > > > shaneam@chc.edu
> > > > > > Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish the
> > stick
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think is a
> > better
> > > > > > > translation??
> > > > > > > (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier was
> > chosen
> > > > -- )
> > > > > > > THank you for the help,
> > > > > > > Beth
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> > > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > _____
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> > > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Beth Ferholt
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > School of Education
> > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > >
> > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
--
Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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