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Re: [xmca] Pivot or Carrier in play?
Larry, the connection with metaphor is fantastic for helping us to think
about playworlds as process.
Anna, I think I agree with your distinction between pivot and metaphor ...
I will return to your thesis and then come back to this.
THe funny thing about the robin coming up in this discussion is that Monica
and I have been talking a lot about robins ... about Kiyo's role as the
Robin in a playworld in California: going into role in play allows you to
use the character to pivot out of yourself, is what I have been thinking
about as I work on the Fakhrutdinova piece on Perezhivanie that Mike sent
around.
Beth
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
> On 10 April 2013 14:44, Christine Schweighart <schweighartc@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > Robins can be amazing , Huw, one came up to within 20cm of my hands
> > yesterday - it was looking right up at me ( so I thought), but it's other
> > eye was looking for worms as I was digging. This took me by surprise -
> > aesthetic experience often has surprise?- anyway - the robin was quite
> sure
> > of itself and not 'tame' or 'domesticated', any more than I on my
> > allotment was 'tamed' or domesticated by the robin.
> > Christine.
> >
> >
> I think you have some of my gist of *just*. Don't forget the work-rate
> too! :)
>
> I think the humble robin is good mediator for explaining British culture to
> civilized Europeans.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:15 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > On 10 April 2013 02:26, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <anamshane@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The interesting thing is that actually the meaning of a "horse" is
> not
> > > > "detached" from the actual concept of the horse!
> > > > Rather it is used without the horse being present! The horse is still
> > > > imagined!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > The play affords the awareness of the idea as distinct from the
> thing(s)
> > > themselves. Such a distinction is considered necessary prior to
> > > formulating an explicit conception of them.
> > >
> > >
> > > > But the "stick" can be anything: a stick, a broom, a chair (as in a
> > > > Serbian children' song), a carpet, a small (or bigger) block. It can
> > even
> > > > be totally absent -- just present in the movements of the child.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Not, if I recall correctly, according to Vygotsky. They need to have
> > some
> > > "fit for purpose", a teacup may already have its purpose assigned which
> > > would conflict. But fluidity of rules is an ingredient in play.
> > >
> > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Ana
> > > > ____________________________________
> > > > Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > > Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > > Associate Professor of Education
> > > > Chestnut Hill College
> > > > Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > shaneam@chc.edu
> > > > Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 9, 2013, at 4:52 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 9 April 2013 21:33, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> *From the OED: *
> > > > >> *
> > > > >> *
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *Pivot ...A short shaft or pin, usually of metal and pointed,
> > forming
> > > > the
> > > > >> centre on which a mechanism turns or oscillates, as the pin of a
> > > hinge,
> > > > or
> > > > >> the end of an axle...*
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *Fulcrum: A prop or support; now only spec. in Mech. the point
> > against
> > > > >> which a lever is placed to get purchase or upon which it turns or
> is
> > > > >> supported.*
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > > Pivot affords the verb, as an aside, which is the doing part of the
> > > > stick.
> > > > >
> > > > > No exotic birds over here, *just* robins and pivoting fulcrums.
> > > > >
> > > > > Huw
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> **
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *What an interesting pair of terms, especially in the context of
> > your
> > > > >> interests, Beth.*
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *
> > > > >> *
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Huw Lloyd <
> > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> On 9 April 2013 15:40, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> fulcrum seems OK
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> Are you translating the paragraph or the term/word?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> The English text is using pivot in about three different ways in
> > > > relation
> > > > >>> to the paragraph and the paragraph's object.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Fulcrum does not capture this because it does not connote the
> > prizing
> > > > of
> > > > >>> the idea of the horse away from the horse itself, which one can
> do
> > > > with a
> > > > >>> stick (as a lever or crowbar).
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Best,
> > > > >>> Huw
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christine Schweighart <
> > > > >>>> schweighartc@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> I can't read Russian, I'm guessing you are looking to express a
> > > > >> meaning
> > > > >>>>> something like 'fulcrum' - not the lever or pivot itself as a
> > > thing.
> > > > >>>>> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fulcrum
> > > > >>>>> Christine
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > >>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> As I mentioned he does NOT use this term rather he writes:
> > > > >>>>>> "В тот момент, когда палочка, т.е. вещь, становится опорной
> > точкой
> > > > >>> для
> > > > >>>>>> отрывания значения лошади от реальной лошади, в этот
> критический
> > > > >>> момент
> > > > >>>>>> коренным образом меняется одна из основных психологических
> > > > >> структур,
> > > > >>>>>> определяющая отношение ребенка к действительности".
> > > > >>>>>> опорная точка-
> > > > >>>>>> literally: a point of support
> > > > >>>>>> Bella
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> > bferholt@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> This is all very helpful, thank you:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Is стимул-средство what Vygotsky uses in the following
> > paragraph
> > > > >>> from
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>> chapter on play, or another word, and is стимул-средство is
> > best
> > > > >>>>>> translated
> > > > >>>>>>> as a type of tool? Which type -- ?
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> "Thought is separated from objects because a piece of wood
> > begins
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>>>> be a
> > > > >>>>>>> doll and a stick becomes a horse. Action according to rules
> > > > >> begins
> > > > >>> to
> > > > >>>>> be
> > > > >>>>>>> determined by ideas, not by objects. This is such a reversal
> of
> > > > >> the
> > > > >>>>>> child's
> > > > >>>>>>> relationship to the real, immediate, concrete situation that
> it
> > > > >> is
> > > > >>>> hard
> > > > >>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>> evaluate its full significance. The child does not do this
> all
> > at
> > > > >>>> once.
> > > > >>>>>> It
> > > > >>>>>>> is terribly difficult for a child to sever thought (the
> meaning
> > > > >> of
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>>>>> word)
> > > > >>>>>>> from object. Play is a transitional stage in this direction.
> At
> > > > >>> that
> > > > >>>>>>> critical moment when a stick - i.e., an object - becomes a
> > pivot
> > > > >>> for
> > > > >>>>>>> severing the meaning of horse from a real horse, one of the
> > basic
> > > > >>>>>>> psychological structures determining the child's relationship
> > to
> > > > >>>>> reality
> > > > >>>>>> is
> > > > >>>>>>> radically altered."
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Beth
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <
> > > > >>>>>>> bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> In the original paper on play I have not found a special
> term
> > > > >> for
> > > > >>>> it,
> > > > >>>>>> but
> > > > >>>>>>>> in further developments it seems that стимул-средство would
> be
> > > > >> a
> > > > >>>>> proper
> > > > >>>>>>>> term
> > > > >>>>>>>> Bella
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 5:38 AM, mike cole <
> lchcmike@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Yo!!
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Would one of our Russian colleagues who can put their hands
> > > > >> on
> > > > >>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>>> Russian
> > > > >>>>>>>>> essay please tell us what the russian word for pivot
> Vygotsky
> > > > >>>> uses?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> mike
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <
> > > > >>>>>>>> anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Dear Beth and Monica,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I think that you should see how would you call a knife and
> > > > >>> two
> > > > >>>>>>> glasses
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that two engineer friend may use over a dinner to talk
> > > > >> about
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>>>> new
> > > > >>>>>>>> bridge
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> they are planning to build.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Are the knife and the glasses "carriers", "pivots", "place
> > > > >>>>> holders"
> > > > >>>>>>> or
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> something else?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I like to think of them as "pivots" (for meaning) because
> > > > >>> they
> > > > >>>> do
> > > > >>>>>> not
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> CARRY meanings, for which they are used for in this
> > > > >>>> conversation.
> > > > >>>>>> In
> > > > >>>>>>>>> other
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> words, I don't think these objects are used
> metaphorically.
> > > > >>> In
> > > > >>>>>>>> metaphor,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> you mean to say something ABOUT an object (person, event,
> > > > >>>>> concept,
> > > > >>>>>>>> etc.)
> > > > >>>>>>>>> by
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> calling it a different name.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "My pillow is my spaceship" -- If I said that to you,
> > > > >> imagine
> > > > >>>>> what
> > > > >>>>>>>> could
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> that mean? Many beautiful, adventurous, romantic, sci-tech
> > > > >>>>>>>> possibilities!
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> But when my 3 yr old son took a pillow, sat on it, started
> > > > >>>>> playing
> > > > >>>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> version of the "Start Wars" and said the same utterance
> "My
> > > > >>>>> pillow
> > > > >>>>>> is
> > > > >>>>>>>> my
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> spaceship"-- it wasn't a metaphor. Just an object (pivot -
> > > > >> a
> > > > >>>>>> holder)
> > > > >>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> play a role in populating the imagined realm.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> In play these objects (sticks, knifes...) just hold the
> > > > >> place
> > > > >>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> images
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> and concepts in the imagined realm -- without providing
> any
> > > > >>>>> meaning
> > > > >>>>>>>>> "ABOUT"
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> these imagined things (horses, bridges, spaceships).
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Carrier" is not bad -- but can be confused with metaphor.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> "Pivot" is very neutral and very descriptive -- the
> meaning
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>>>>>> "hinged"
> > > > >>>>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> the object.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> What do you think?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Dialogic Pedagogy Journal
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Associate Professor of Education
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Chestnut Hill College
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Emails: anamshane@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> shaneam@chc.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 267-334-2905
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:27 AM, Beth Ferholt <
> > > > >>> bferholt@gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Monica and I are discussing the horse/stick -- in Swedish
> > > > >>> the
> > > > >>>>>> stick
> > > > >>>>>>>> is
> > > > >>>>>>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> carrier, in English a pivot, and which do people think
> > > > >> is a
> > > > >>>>>> better
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> translation??
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> (There is a word for Pivot in Swedish but still Carrier
> > > > >> was
> > > > >>>>>> chosen
> > > > >>>>>>>> -- )
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> THank you for the help,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> School of Education
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > >>>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>> Beth Ferholt
> > > > >>>>>>> Assistant Professor
> > > > >>>>>>> School of Education
> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > > > >>>>>>> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > > > >>>>>>> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > > > >>>>>>> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > > > >>>>>>> Fax: (718) 951-4816
> > > > >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > >>>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> _____
> > > > >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> --
> > > > >>>> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > >>>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>>> _____
> > > > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> __________________________________________
> > > > >>> _____
> > > > >>> xmca mailing list
> > > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> __________________________________________
> > > > >> _____
> > > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > >>
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > >
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> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
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> > > >
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> > > _____
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
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>
--
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
School of Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816
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