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Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

Having had a chance to speak to Sue March and Marilyn Fleer about what they discussed at the Golden Key Summer School with Elena Ktavtsova in Moscow, I can now be clear that the sense of "catharsis" which is derived from Jakob Bleuer was not appropriated by Vygotsky or his followers, but rather catharsis only arose in connection with Vygotsky's study of the psychology of art. So the "putative sixth characteristic" of perezhivanie is dead and buried, 

Andy

Andy Blunden wrote:
I think that the concept of "perezhivanie" as used by Vygotsky (and "an experience" as used by Dewey as it happens). has 5 different characteristics. The idea (1) that it is an active relation between the person and their social situation, *and* (2) an emotionally charged event which entails *all* aspects of the person (not just emotion), are two characteristics, but neither are alone sufficient. For example, almost everything that can be said about the psyche is an active relation between the person and their social situation. That is simply to do with the ontology of the Goethean/Marxist/Hegelian approach to human beings.
I believe (3) it is also essential that "perezhivanie" is a discrete entity, not a continuous substance, which may be implied by the use of words like "experience" or "lived experience" etc., which would reconcile the concept to empiricism. These are two misunderstandings which led Dewey to later regret his choice of word.
(4), that perezhivanie is a "unit", that is, a germ-cell, unit of analysis etc., which goes to the place of the concept in the entire theory of which it is part, and the character of that theory. (5), that it is underpinned by a conception of mediated action, otherwise confusion arises from comments like "interpretation" of the situation, which in fact led Lydia Bozhovich, wrongly in my opinion, to accuse Vygostsky of "intellectualism."
A putative sixth characteristic, namely, that catharsis is necessary for perezhivanija to function in development, is *not* to be found in Vygotsky or Dewey, but originates from Freud's teacher, Jakob Bleuer, the inventor of the talking cure. (Its remote origin in Aristotle is in my view immaterial). Thanks to Natalia Gajudamaschko for assistance with that one.) Another "non-characteristic" for which I thanks Bella Kotik-Friedgut for confirming my opinion: perezhivanie may be positively exciting adventure as well as negatively challenging trauma - inspirational, if you like. Dot Robbin's etymological explanations help us to grasp the depth of the word to the Russian ear, connotations which are more or less absent for "an experience," but don't really materially change the concept itself. Just as one does not have to be French to understand the meaning of "sympathique." 

Andy
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm
mike cole wrote:

So the distinction makes sense.
Do we need tragedy to stop and think (rework, re-collect, re-turn), though? 

Perhaps we need sharp discontinuities to evoke enough disruption to get
emotions activated, to REALLY stop and rethink
large swatches of prior.... ugh...... experience.
mike
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, it is this second tradition which Andy's question is addressing. The 
notion of the *tragic soul* and catharis as a particular process of
*reworking* and *recollecting* or *return*. A circling back over previously experienced critical disturbances in the organism-environment relationship. Andy is asking if THIS process is explored in either Dewey or Vygotsky, or 
is it an extension of their understanding of aesthetic [intense]
experiencing ?

Larry



On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:


>From all of the quotations from Russian, there appear to be two
divisible "orientations" to the word. One is something like "the unity of 
the organism and the environment" that is apparently akin to Dilthey'
(1833–1911) belief that "human experience (erlebnis, usually >> translated 
'lived experience') ---( From Martin's quotation of Dilthey.)
The second tradition seems to single out intense experiences associated 
with critical disturbances in the oranism-environment relationship in
either the negative (emphasized by the Doestoevsky in Vasiliuk) or
positive
(as emphasized by Bella)
direction.

Is that a reasonable conclusion?
mike
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote: 


The only time that I know of that LSV talks about catharsis is in The
Psychology of Art, where he does not talk about perezhivanie, at least 
in

the 1971 MIT translation; but according to Van der Veer, that

translation

only includes about half of what's available in Russian.

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] 
On

Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:09 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

Before moving on to Wundt, and Aristotle I wonder if any xmca
correspondents could help me with this question?

In my collection of quotes at
http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm I was able to 
line up Dewey's concept of "an experience" with Vygotsky's concept of
"perezhivanie" on 5 different "dimensions". But there is one aspect of 
perezehivanie which I can line up with Freud and Stanislavsky and

several
contemporary commentators such as Ferholt, Kravtsov, Vasilyuk, ..., but 
I

can't find it in Dewey and I don't know where to find it in Vygotsky,

and

that is:
* in order to function in development, perezhivanie must be "recalled" 
and "worked over" in "catharsis" which is related to what Mike Cole

calls

"prolepsis" or "temporality". Where do I find a clear expression for

this

idea in Vygotsky and is it to be found in Dewey?

Andy

Larry Purss wrote:

Mike, Andy, Martin
Mike has summarized the thread to this point in the conversation with 
the
comment:

 I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he
stands for the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between
volkpsychology and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
link it somehow to xmca.
Mike, as we link up Dilthey, Dewey, and Vygotsky we seem to be linking 
up *lived experience* which emphasizes the SUBJECTIVE emotional,
visceral significance of lived experience.

Another central concept is the understanding of *recollection* when
the impact of the situation on the person summons up the entire lived 
experience of development.

Does Aristotle's notion of *phronesis* as the relationship BETWEEN
*character* and *application* also offer another source for linking to perezhivanie?? My reason for asking is that Gadamer has *recollected* lived experience as *flourishing* by returning to Aristotle. Aristotle also was exploring notions of the *moral good* and I want to link this to page 3 of Andy's notes on perezhivanie. On page 3 Vygotsky uses the 
metaphor of
*prism* and *refraction* on the environments role and influence on the 
course of development. Vygotsky is suggesting the discipline of
pedology as a genre OUGHT to always be capable of finding the
particular *prism* THROUGH WHICH the influence of the environment of
the environment on the child is REFRACTED. In Vygotsky's own words

pedology:

"OUGHT to be able to find the relationship which exists between the
child and its environment, the child's emotional experience
[perezhivanie], in other words how a child BECOMES AWARE of,
INTERPRETS, [and] EMOTIONALLY RELATES to a certain event. This is such a prism which DETERMINES the role and influence of the environment on 
the development of, say, the child's CHARACTER, his psychological

development, etc.

Andy the way you chose to present the multiple shades of meaning of
perezhivanie [TRANSlated as "lived experience"] through gathering
together multiple authors each presenting their particular
understanding of "lived experience" I found helpful in offering a
deepening clarity of perezhivanie. In conjunction with Dewey's
understanding of aesthetic experience as a deepening *intensification* 
of lived experience and Dilthey's exploration of lived experience as
*undergoing*, possible new linkings or avenues of conversation open

up.

Fascinating thread which brings to center stage questions of
subjectivity, intra-subjectivity, inter-subjectivity,
trans-subjectivity and how these various understandings of
subjectivity [and character development] link to perezhivanie. I
appreciate how XMCA is contributing to my personal development.

Larry










On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>

wrote:
I expect Ivo just sat that dangling issue there on purpose and I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he stands for 
the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between volkpsychology
and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets 
link it somehow to xmca.

mike

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>

wrote:

Marvellous quote, Martin. None of these issues were discovered
yesterday, it seems.
I had forgotten that a couple of years ago I made up a collection of 
quotes from various writers on "Perezhivanie" here:
http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<


http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>


Andy


Martin Packer wrote:
On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote: 


Sorry, I've just realized I've mistaken Dewey with Dilthey, I
wonder why...




Perhaps because all of this was in Dilthey too.
Dilthey (1833-1911) considered human experience (erlebnis, usually 
translated 'lived experience') to be concrete and historical,
always


shaped
by the context of the past and by the horizon of the future, and he 


argued


that lived experience is the basis for all understanding. Lived


experience
is a direct, immediate, pre-reflective contact with life, an act of perceiving in which the person is unified with the object of their understanding. It is made up not of static cognitive categories but 
of meaningful unities which are prior to the separation between
emotion, willing,  with knowing. Lived experience contains within
it the


temporality


of living, and of life itself.
"That which in the stream of time forms a unity in the present
because


it
has a unitary meaning is the smallest entity which we can designate 
as


an


experience" (Dilthey, Collected Works 7, 194)

"The experience does not stand like an object over against its
experiencer, but rather its very existence for me is
undifferentiated


from


the whatness which is present for me in it" (Collected Works 7,
139)

Martin




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