Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Mike, it is this second tradition which Andy's question is addressing. The
notion of the *tragic soul* and catharis as a particular process of
*reworking* and *recollecting* or *return*. A circling back over previously
experienced critical disturbances in the organism-environment relationship.
Andy is asking if THIS process is explored in either Dewey or Vygotsky, or
is it an extension of their understanding of aesthetic [intense]
experiencing ?

Larry



On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> >From all of the quotations from Russian, there appear to be two
> divisible "orientations" to the word. One is something like "the unity of
> the organism and the environment" that is apparently akin to Dilthey'
> (1833–1911) belief that "human experience (erlebnis, usually >> translated
> 'lived experience') ---( From Martin's quotation of Dilthey.)
>
> The second tradition seems to single out intense experiences associated
> with critical disturbances in the oranism-environment relationship in
> either the negative (emphasized by the Doestoevsky in Vasiliuk) or positive
> (as emphasized by Bella)
> direction.
>
> Is that a reasonable conclusion?
> mike
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
>
> > The only time that I know of that LSV talks about catharsis is in The
> > Psychology of Art, where he does not talk about perezhivanie, at least in
> > the 1971 MIT translation; but according to Van der Veer, that translation
> > only includes about half of what's available in Russian.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:09 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
> >
> > Before moving on to Wundt, and Aristotle I wonder if any xmca
> > correspondents could help me with this question?
> >
> > In my collection of quotes at
> > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm I was able to
> > line up Dewey's concept of "an experience" with Vygotsky's concept of
> > "perezhivanie" on 5 different "dimensions". But there is one aspect of
> > perezehivanie which I can line up with Freud and Stanislavsky and several
> > contemporary commentators such as Ferholt, Kravtsov, Vasilyuk, ..., but I
> > can't find it in Dewey and I don't know where to find it in Vygotsky, and
> > that is:
> >
> > * in order to function in development, perezhivanie must be "recalled"
> > and "worked over" in "catharsis" which is related to what Mike Cole calls
> > "prolepsis" or "temporality". Where do I find a clear expression for this
> > idea in Vygotsky and is it to be found in Dewey?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Larry Purss wrote:
> > > Mike, Andy, Martin
> > >
> > > Mike has summarized the thread to this point in the conversation with
> > > the
> > > comment:
> > >
> > >  I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he
> > > stands for the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between
> > > volkpsychology and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
> > > Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
> > > link it somehow to xmca.
> > >
> > > Mike, as we link up Dilthey, Dewey, and Vygotsky we seem to be linking
> > > up *lived experience* which emphasizes the SUBJECTIVE emotional,
> > > visceral significance of lived experience.
> > >
> > > Another central concept is the understanding of *recollection* when
> > > the impact of the situation on the person summons up the entire lived
> > > experience of development.
> > >
> > > Does Aristotle's notion of *phronesis* as the relationship BETWEEN
> > > *character* and *application* also offer another source for linking to
> > > perezhivanie?? My reason for asking is that Gadamer has *recollected*
> > > lived experience as *flourishing* by returning to Aristotle. Aristotle
> > > also was exploring notions of the *moral good* and I want to link this
> > > to page 3 of Andy's notes on perezhivanie. On page 3 Vygotsky uses the
> > > metaphor of
> > > *prism* and *refraction* on the environments role and influence on the
> > > course of development. Vygotsky is suggesting the discipline of
> > > pedology as a genre OUGHT to always be capable of finding the
> > > particular *prism* THROUGH WHICH the influence of the environment of
> > > the environment on the child is REFRACTED. In Vygotsky's own words
> > pedology:
> > >
> > > "OUGHT to be able to find the relationship which exists between the
> > > child and its environment, the child's emotional experience
> > > [perezhivanie], in other words how a child BECOMES AWARE of,
> > > INTERPRETS, [and] EMOTIONALLY RELATES to a certain event. This is such
> > > a prism which DETERMINES the role and influence of the environment on
> > > the development of, say, the child's CHARACTER, his psychological
> > development, etc.
> > >
> > > Andy the way you chose to present the multiple shades of meaning of
> > > perezhivanie [TRANSlated as "lived experience"] through gathering
> > > together multiple authors each presenting their particular
> > > understanding of "lived experience" I found helpful in offering a
> > > deepening clarity of perezhivanie. In conjunction with Dewey's
> > > understanding of aesthetic experience as a deepening *intensification*
> > > of lived experience and Dilthey's exploration of lived experience as
> > > *undergoing*, possible new linkings or avenues of conversation open up.
> > >
> > > Fascinating thread which brings to center stage questions of
> > > subjectivity, intra-subjectivity, inter-subjectivity,
> > > trans-subjectivity and how these various understandings of
> > > subjectivity [and character development] link to perezhivanie. I
> > > appreciate how XMCA is contributing to my personal development.
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> I expect Ivo just sat that dangling issue there on purpose and I was
> > >> also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey.  To me he stands for
> > >> the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between volkpsychology
> > >> and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
> > >>
> > >> Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
> > >> link it somehow to xmca.
> > >>
> > >> mike
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Marvellous quote, Martin. None of these issues were discovered
> > >>> yesterday, it seems.
> > >>> I had forgotten that a couple of years ago I made up a collection of
> > >>> quotes from various writers on "Perezhivanie" here:
> > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<
> > >>>
> > >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>
> > >>
> > >>> Andy
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Sorry, I've just realized I've mistaken Dewey with Dilthey, I
> > >>>>>> wonder why...
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>> Perhaps because all of this was in Dilthey too.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dilthey (1833-1911) considered human experience (erlebnis, usually
> > >>>> translated 'lived experience') to be concrete and historical,
> > >>>> always
> > >>>>
> > >> shaped
> > >>
> > >>>> by the context of the past and by the horizon of the future, and he
> > >>>>
> > >> argued
> > >>
> > >>>> that lived experience is the basis for all understanding. Lived
> > >>>>
> > >> experience
> > >>
> > >>>> is a direct, immediate, pre-reflective contact with life, an act of
> > >>>> perceiving in which the person is unified with the object of their
> > >>>> understanding. It is made up not of static cognitive categories but
> > >>>> of meaningful unities which are prior to the separation between
> > >>>> emotion, willing,  with knowing. Lived experience contains within
> > >>>> it the
> > >>>>
> > >> temporality
> > >>
> > >>>> of living, and of life itself.
> > >>>> "That which in the stream of time forms a unity in the present
> > >>>> because
> > >>>>
> > >> it
> > >>
> > >>>> has a unitary meaning is the smallest entity which we can designate
> > >>>> as
> > >>>>
> > >> an
> > >>
> > >>>> experience" (Dilthey, Collected Works 7, 194)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "The experience does not stand like an object over against its
> > >>>> experiencer, but rather its very existence for me is
> > >>>> undifferentiated
> > >>>>
> > >> from
> > >>
> > >>>> the whatness which is present for me in it" (Collected Works 7,
> > >>>> 139)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Martin
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> > >>>> _____
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> > >>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > >>> ------------
> > >>> *Andy Blunden*
> > >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > >>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > >>>
> > >> http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > >>
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> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >
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