Andy,
I'm now moving into a hermeneutical circle where I am glimpsing the
outline of the spirit of this thread. I will amplify [intensify] one
aspect of your citation through repetition:
Vygotsky talks of the difference between grammatical category and
psychological category, more or less how the words which come out of
your mouth in good syntax only approximate the concept which is being
realised in the words. He says:
"Thus, correspondence between the grammatical and psychological
structure of speech may be encountered less frequently than we
generally assume. Indeed, it may merely be postulated and rarely if
ever realized in fact."
Andy, this is another example of the inevitable *gaps* in
psychological understanding which human communicative mediums
*address* Language and perception as dialogical phenomena [dialogical
meaning within NOT duo] seem to orient within nature as gestures, [a
category] addressing and being addressed.
I will pause here as I'm groping for understanding and I am as much
*undergoing* and being carried along by the *dance* as I am initiating
or *doing* or taking the *lead*
Dewey's notion of *undergoing* & Gadamer's notion as *play* seem to
share a family resemblance. Dewey says there needs to be a *balance*
between doing and undergoing. Gadamer would invite us to reflect on
*undergoing*
I question if our current *social imaginary* [Taylor] or Agnes
Heller's *logics* or Bahktin's *genre's [or Andy's concepts?] within
modernity are out of balance and the emphasis on *doing* may
inevitably move *undergoing* to the backgound or into the shadows out
of sight and hearing.
Andy, this movement of conversation as the rhythmical flow of unity
and disunity which often [most often] starts from mis-understanding
and then is needing to *return* to say more in order for further
clarification [the process we are now engaging in] locates meaning not
within internal subjective processes, nor in grammatical
structures. Meaning is located within our
dialogicalcomposing/compositions. In other words a hermeneutical
*question and answer* dialogical phenomenal experience within
conversations
AS a *dance* or a *drama* [metaphor as transfer]. Psychological
understandings, & grammatical understandings are simultaneously
dialogical understandings [addressing the other] as rhythmical
movements [gestures]
Now the *other* being addressed, for Dewey, is foundationally
a natural process and when experienced aesthetically, being
addressed becomes experienced AS an intensification of living.
Tom Leddy [in the article Dewey's Aesthetics] on page 4 suggests there
is a renewed interest in Dewey scholarship in part due to increased
interest in various continental aestheticians. Leddy points out the
family resemblance between Dewey and Merleau Ponty and Gadamer and
Marxist aestheticians. Another stream of reflections discusses the
family resemblance between Dewey and Eastern Aesthetics.
Mike opened this thread hoping to encourage conversations between
Dewey's notion of experience and perezhivanie. Are the current
conversations within Russia which are exploring and deepening our
understanding of perezhivanie engaging with the various continental
aestheticians who have returned to Dewey to explore the notion of
intensifying experience?
Larry
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
Larry,
I have been ruminating over these questions overnight, and Carol
is of course right, that I cannot get away with claiming that
"meaning" is a gerund, or at least that Vygotsky consistently uses
"meaning" as part of the verb form "to mean" in "Thinking and
Spech." Indeed, I am inclined now to think that Mike's comment to
Carol: "Now how do we make sense of that, Carol?" was a beautiful
piece of irony from an expert communicator to an expert linguist.
For the way I wanted to bend the meaning of meaning in Vygoysky is
more akin to how Vygotsky uses the word "sense".
I turn to Chapter 7 of "T&S"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/words/Chapter7.doc
(p. 276, or search for "several zones") and I see that Vygotsky
talks about "sense" much as I want to use "concept" but he seems
to regard it as a psychic structure, but at the same time I cannot
make sense of what he is saying other than as "activity." And when
he says "Isolated in the lexicon the word has only one meaning," I
can only make sense of this as a plea *not* to take meaning in
that way? I find the only way to make sense of LSV's use of words
is to allow that the meanings were simply unavailable to him and
he had to do the best he could.
Continuing this investigation of Chapter 7, go to page 252 (or
search for "grammatical category") and let's look at how LSV uses
the word "category"! The rich etymology of this word is somewhat
reflected in how Vygotsky uses it. According to the Oxford English
dictionary, "category" dertives from the Greek kategoria, which
means predication, or assertion, or accusation. It's meaning kind
of branched off between philosophy - actually the sense in which
Vygotsky seems to be using it, and which is the common or garden
meaning, more or less - and rhetoric, see Wikipedia on
"Apologetics" - in which kategoria and apologia are a pair of
opposites. These words were used for respectively the prosecution
and defence in the trial of Socrates, und9oubtedly also a rich
source of development, albeit somewhat conflictual. But I think
the meaning Vygotsky uses here is "predication" and he talks of
the difference between grammatical category and psychological
category, more or less how the words which come out of your mouth
in good syntax only approximate the concept which is being
realised in the words. He says:
"Thus, correspondence between the grammatical and psychological
structure of speech may be encountered less frequently than we
generally assume. Indeed, it may merely be postulated and rarely if
ever realized in fact. In phonetics, morphology, vocabulary, and
semantics - even in rhythm, metrics, and music - the psychological
category lies hidden behind the grammatical or formal category. If
the two appear to correspond with one another in one situation,
they
diverge again in others. We can speak not only of the psychological
elements of form and meaning, not only of the psychological subject
and predicate, but of psychological number, gender, case, pronouns,
superlatives, and tenses."
but then, at last, to give some reply to your question, Larry, he
adds:
Thus, what is a mistake from the perspective of language, may have
artistic value if it has an original source.
and quotes some lines of poetry from Pushkin.
I'm still struggling to make sense of this. :) I think Dewey's
conceptions here are as close to LSV's as you can get, while
remaining within the thinking of two different people working in
two different contexts.
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
Andy,
Your comment:
I don't deny that "meaning" has taken on a certain usage and
is widely taken to be the attribute of a word or phrase and
found in a dictionary, but I think as a scientist I prefer to
see such things as objectifications of the primary source
which is human speech/speaking. I think the same distinctions
can be discovered in perezhivanija, experiences and so on.
As a scientist what do you think of Dewey's understanding
that science is the handmaiden of aesthetics [which means an
intensifying experience of life]
On page 16, Tom Leddy in the Stanford article Mike sent
translates Dewey's understanding of being TRULY alive:
"Rather than giving art primacy in aesthetic, Dewey believes
that humans only feel properly alive when absorbing the
aesthetic FEATURES of nature. Aesthetic experience of the
natural environment can even take the FORM of *ecstatic
communion*. This is due to ancient habits gained in the
relations between the living being and its environment.
Sensuous experience can absorb into itself meanings and values
that are DESIGNATED 'ideal' or 'spiritual'. Dewey observes
that belief that nature is full of spirits is closely tied to
POETRY. The sensuous surfaces of things INCORPORATE not only
what is given to the senses but the most profound INSIGHT.
Many of the arts ORIGINATE in primitive rituals which were
not simply intended as means to get rain, etc. but for the
ENHANCEMENT OF THE EXPERIENCE. Similarly myth was not just an
early form of science." [Leddy, p.16]
Andy, as a scientist, are the practises of science intended
to creatively and ideally participate in the reenchantment of
the world?.
Ivo introducing Gendlin, notions of vivencia, Merleau Ponty's
notion of *singing thw world* all are invitations addressing
us to imagine the rhythmical flow and pulsing of life
reenchanted. Modernity may have been a *wrong turn* and we
are in a *revolution* [not as turning away from history but as
a returning to history] Ancient Greece often is returned to
in philosophy. Why? Because the texts of that epoch were
expressing the experience of intensified life. It was an
aesthetic epoch.
Just thinking out loud but hopeing to participate in further
*minding* and *eventing* as "collaborative projects" of
revolution and return.
Larry
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
The distinction is not quite the grammatical one, is it Carol?
Meaning can be a noun and still be the name of an
attribute of a
symbol or artefact. "Attribute" is a noun. And it can
still be a
gerund, as a kind of noun, derived from the verb "to
mean". So if
"I meant to help you when I said that," "my meaning was to be
helpful," with "meaning" here being the gerund referring to my
speech act. I don't deny that "meaning" has taken on a
certain
usage and is widely taken to be the attribute of a word or
phrase
and found in a dictionary, but I think as a scientist I
prefer to
see such things as objectifications of the primary source
which is
human speech/speaking. I think the same distinctions can be
discovered in perezhivanija, experiences and so on.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
Now how do we make sense of that, Carol?
:-)
mike
On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 8:37 PM,
<carolmacdon@gmail.com <mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com>
<mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com
<mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com>> <mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com
<mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com>
<mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com
<mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
No Andy, "meaning" is principally a noun of long
standing,
ossified. There are loads of examples of noun/verb
pairs.
Sent via my BlackBerry from Vodacom - let your
email find you!
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
Sender: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:39:57
To: <lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>
Reply-To: ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>, "eXtended
Mind, Culture,
Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture,
Activity<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's
concept of
experience
Yes, the use of "Thought" in lieu of "Thinking" and
"Language" instead
of "Speaking" is famous and widely recognised, but
I have
found that
while noting this, people often stick to "meaning"
as the
attribute of a
symbol rather than the gerund of an action verb.
Andy
mike cole wrote:
> Not that the same "verbifying" can be found in
"Thought and
Language"
> vs "Thinking and Speech." Kind of like Ivo's Dewey
> and Dilthey......
>
> Makes international discussion about
perezhivanie/experience
> an interesting exercise!
>
> mike
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Andy Blunden
<ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>> wrote:
>
> Oh I see!
> It has always amused me how George Lakoff in
his list
fundamental
> human actions/relations which provide the
foundation for
language,
> along with travelling, handling objects,
containers,
and spatial
> position, he includes guns and war. I have
taken this as
> indicative of the nature of life in the land
of the
free. So in
> this case I took "double-barrelled" to mean
as in
> "double-barrelled shot gun"! I had never
thought of
the cooper's
> barrel in this context.
>
> And yes, the facility of English with its
"ing" to
turn a
process
> verb into a noun can be annoying, if you get my
meaning, but the
> English language is undergoing a movement in
the reverse
direction
> in recent decades, with more and more
action-nouns (like
"impact")
> being used as verbs. This seems to be a
legacy of
the culture in
> which James and Dewey were philosophising.
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
> A barrel, as used in this context, usually
refers to a
wooden or
> metal tube/container that is "solid." It is
unchanging over
> significant periods of a human life span.
>
> Zaporozhets reminds us, somewhere, that
as we are
groping the
> environment with bodies, the environment is
groping us. And
> given the "ing" in groping, its not a
noun, its
a process
> occurring over
>
> time.
>
> Perhaps that is not useful. I have
temporality
on the brain,
> so to speak.
>
> mike
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Andy
Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>>> wrote:
>
> I don't understand your allusion to
temporality, Mike.
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
> Those are both terrifically useful
passages to
think with,
> Larry and Andy. Thanks. I (so to
speak)
really
> resonate to the
> notion of rhythmicity and
movement in
the first
> passage, and
> the "doublebarrel" metaphor in
the second. I
think for the
> latter that
> barrel is perhaps unfortunate in
so far
as "two-way"
> /temporality/
> is backgrounded.
>
> thanks!
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:22 AM,
Andy
Blunden
> <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>>>> wrote:
>
> What about this one Larry?
>
> ‘Experience’ is what
James
called a
> double-barreled
> word. Like
> its congeners, life and
history, it
> includes /what/
> men do and
> suffer, /what/ they
strive
for, love,
> believe and
> endure, and
> /how/ men act and are
acted
upon, the
ways
> in which
> they do and
> suffer, desire and enjoy,
see, believe,
> imagine –
> in short,
> processes of
/experiencing/.
... It is
> ‘double-barreled’ in
> that
> it recognizes in its
primary
integrity no
> division
> between act
> and material, subject and
object, but
> contains them
> both in an
> unanalyzed totality.
‘Thing’ and
‘thought’, as
> James says
> in the
> same connection, are
single-barreled;
they
> refer to
> products
> discriminated by
reflection
out of
primary
> experience (1929
> PJD:
> 256-7).
>
> Andy
>
>
> Larry Purss wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> On page 12 of the
article on
Dewey's
> notionotion of
> experience the theme
> of experience AS
> "life overcomes and
transforms
factors of
> opposition to
> achieve higher
> significance. Harmony and
equilibrium
are the
> resullts
> not of
> mechanical
> processes but of RHYTHMIC
resolution of
> tension. The
> rhythmic
> ALTERNATION
> within the live creature
BETWEEN
unity and
> disunity
> becomes
> CONSCIOUS in
> humans. Emotion
signifies BREAKS in
> experience which
> are then
> resolved
> through reflective action"
>
> I thought this may be a
way in to
*start* the
> conversational
> dialogue with
> perezhivanie.
>
> Larry
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at
5:55 PM,
Larry Purss
> <lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>>>>
>
> wrote:
>
>
Michael, Mike:
> One more fragment on the
definition of
> sentipensante:
>
> Sentipensante
pedagogy offers a
transformative
> vision of
> education that
> emphasizes the harmonic,
complementary
> relationship
> between the sentir of
> intuition and the
pensar of
intellect and
> scholarship;
> between teaching and
> learning; between formal
knowledge and
> wisdom; and
> between
> Western and
> non-Western ways of
knowing.
>
> Seems to have some
family
resemblance to
> this theme of
> experience
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013
at 5:37 PM,
Larry Purss
>
<lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>
>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>
Mike,
> Thanks for this.
> Stanford Pub is
a wonderful
resource.
> I seem to
> download an author
> approximately once a
month. For
$10 you
> support them
> and get the articles
> sent in a PDF
format.
>
> Michael , here
is a link [in
Spanish]
> to a youtube
> video of Orlando
> Fals-Borda
discussing his
understanding of
> experience
> from the heart.
> If you have any
articles
in English
> which you can
> share, this
seems to be
> exploring experience
within "felt
> awareness".
> Seems to be a
fascinating
expansion of the
> understanding of
experience.
>
> Thanks, Michael
and Mike
>
> Larry
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJWqetRuMo
>
> On Mon, Feb 18,
2013 at
3:46 PM,
mike cole
>
<lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>
>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Larry. Viva la differencia. Here is
> a quick
> summary of
Dewey on
> experience. Note
that his ideas
> are considered
> unusual by
the author.
> That
> Stanford pub
seems
very useful.
> mike
>
>
>
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dewey-aesthetics/#HavExp
>
> On Mon, Feb
18, 2013
at 3:08 PM,
> Larry Purss
>
<lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>
>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com
<mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>>>>>>
>
> wrote:
>
>
> Michael,
> I also found
this site
for Orlando
> Fals Borda.
>
> http://comm-org.wisc.edu/si/falsborda.htm
> If it is
off topic
please ignore.
> However, it
> is where my
curiosity was
> called
or invited.
>
> Larry
>
> On Mon,
Feb 18,
2013 at
11:40 AM,
> Glassman,
> Michael <
>
> glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>>
> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>
> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>>> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>
> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>>
>
> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu> <mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu
<mailto:glassman.13@osu.edu>>>>>>
>
>
> wrote:
>
Perhaps
> another avenue to
>
explore might be
Ortega y
> Gasset's
> ideas on
>
experience
(which is
> probably in
> some ways
>
reflective
of Dewey)
>
> which was
>
> appropriated by Orlando Fals Borda
> in the
>
concept of
vivencia -
>
> which is
>
> very compelling - and became an
> important
> part of
Fals-Borda's
>
> conception
>
> of Participatory Action Research.
> This
>
might then
tie back
to the
>
> earlier
>
> issue on PAR.
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________________
> From:
> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>
>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>
>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>
>
> [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>
>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
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<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>
>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>>>] on
>
>
> behalf
>
> of mike cole
[lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>>
>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>
>
> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>>>>]
>
>
Sent: Monday,
February 18,
> 2013
> 2:28 PM
> To:
Beth Ferholt
> Cc:
Galina
Zuckerman; John
> Shotter; Boris
>
Meshcheryakov; eXtended
>
> Mind,
>
> Culture, Activity; James Wertsch;
>
Alexander
Asmolov
>
Subject: Re:
[xmca]
> Perezhivanie and
> Dewey's
concept of
experience
>
>
Thanks Beth--
>
> I
ask, firstly,
because there
> appear quite
> clear
overlaps as
you and
>
> Monica
>
> have been exploring.
>
>
Secondly, we
have two
> submissions
> to MCA
> on
perezhivanie that are
>
> very
>
> focused on Russian authors. Over
> and above
>
competing
>
exegeses of
the ideas of
> Vygotsky,
>
Puyzerei,
etc., it seems
> important
>
> that
>
> we figure out ways to explore
> different
> ways
of thinking
about the
>
> general
>
> category of "experience"
that will be
>
productive
of new
> empirical and
>
theoretical
investigation.
>
> mike
>
> On
Mon, Feb
18, 2013 at
> 9:42 AM, Beth
> Ferholt
> <bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
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<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>>>
> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
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<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
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>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
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<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>>>
>
> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
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<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com> <mailto:bferholt@gmail.com
<mailto:bferholt@gmail.com>>>>>>>
>
>
> wrote: