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and the content has not been altered or updated since archiving.
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Grice does it more like this: Tomatoes as well as squirrels and humans can express "meaning natural." Both squirrels and humans also understand the "meaning natural." I don't know about other tomatoes. Tomatoes, though, don't express "meaning non-natural." Squirrels? I don't know about squirrels and the expression of non-natural meaning; those cute sexy bonobos, though, they do express and understand meaning non-natural (according to fairly recent work on their "writing" in the dirt). A human blush is "meaning natural" but tomatoes and squirrels (and some humans) may not attend to it or "get it." A human's sun-burn is meaning non-natural, too. But it arises and we work it out differently than we would a blush. And humans with different socio-cultural resources may interpret the blush differently. Meaning non-natural includes language and other socio-cultural conventional systems, whether static and limited or generative and creative, explicit, implied, or inferred via reliance on implicatures. Grice has written about indexicality clearly within the meaning non-natural realm but not much related to Pierce's index, I think. So not sure if any one of this matters to priznak. -----Original Message----- From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:59 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak So pre-znak is natural line of development, while znak is cultural line? Naw. My squirrels know when my tomatoes are ripe, darn critters. mike On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote: > BTW, H. P. Grice used an example like "redness of a tomato ... that it > is ripe" when he was discussing his distinction between "meaning > natural" and "meaning non-natural." > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] > On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:14 AM > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak > > I would say that znak is closer to index but priznak may be also some > real quality (redness of a tomato is a priznak that it is ripe) may be > priznak we can see as pre znak? > Bella Kotik > > On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Achilles Delari Junior < > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi, XMCA, > > > > One more extemporaneous question. > > > > Do you know something about any relations between the Russian term > > "priznak" > > and the peircean concept of "index"? There are many mentions to "priznak" > > in the > > "Studies on the history of behavior: ape, primitive, and child" from > > Vygotsky and Luria... and, of course, a "priznak" must be a kind of > > "znak" (sign)... > > But no > > necessarily the "priznak"'s role, in some kinds of relations between > > human beings and his environment, is posed in strictly semiotic > > terms along the book... > > Can we > > find something more about the role of "index" in Vygotsky theory of sign? > > How > > does Russian semiotics designate Pierce typology of sings, for instance? > > > > Thank you very much. > > > > Achilles. > > >From Brazil. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Acesse o Portal MSN do seu celular e se mantenha sempre atualizado. > > Clique aqui. > > > > http://www.windowslive.com.br/celular/home.asp?utm_source=MSN_Hotmai > > l& > > utm_medium=Tagline&utm_campaign=MobileServices200908________________ > > __ > > _____________________________ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > > > > > -- > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > > _______________________________________________ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca