RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak

["Peg Griffin" <Peg.Griffin@att.net>]

oops -- the sunburn is meaning natural 

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of Peg Griffin
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:36 AM
To: lchcmike@gmail.com; 'eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity'
Subject: RE: [xmca] Znak and Priznak

Grice does it more like this: 
Tomatoes as well as squirrels and humans can express "meaning natural." 

Both squirrels and humans also understand the "meaning natural."   I don't
know about other tomatoes.

Tomatoes, though, don't express "meaning non-natural."  
Squirrels?  I don't know about squirrels and the expression of non-natural
meaning; those cute sexy bonobos, though, they do express and understand
meaning non-natural (according to fairly recent work on their "writing" in
the dirt).

A human blush is "meaning natural" but tomatoes and squirrels (and some
humans) may not attend to it or "get it." 
A human's sun-burn is meaning non-natural, too.  But it arises and we work
it out differently than we would a blush.
And humans with different socio-cultural resources may interpret the blush
differently.

Meaning non-natural includes language and other socio-cultural conventional
systems, whether static and limited or generative and creative, explicit,
implied, or inferred via reliance on implicatures.
Grice has written about indexicality clearly within the meaning non-natural
realm but not much related to Pierce's index, I think.
So not sure if any one of this matters to priznak.

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:59 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak

So pre-znak is natural line of development, while znak is cultural line?
Naw. My squirrels know when my tomatoes are ripe, darn critters.
mike

On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> BTW, H. P. Grice used an example like "redness of a tomato ... that it 
> is ripe" when he was discussing his distinction between "meaning 
> natural" and "meaning non-natural."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 4:14 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Znak and Priznak
>
> I would say that znak is closer to index but priznak may be also some 
> real quality (redness of a tomato is a priznak that it is ripe) may be 
> priznak we can see as pre znak?
> Bella Kotik
>
> On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Achilles Delari Junior < 
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi, XMCA,
> >
> > One more extemporaneous question.
> >
> > Do you know something about any relations between the Russian term 
> > "priznak"
> > and the peircean concept of "index"? There are many mentions to
"priznak"
> > in the
> > "Studies on the history of behavior: ape, primitive, and child" from 
> > Vygotsky and Luria... and, of course, a "priznak" must be a kind of 
> > "znak" (sign)...
> > But no
> > necessarily the "priznak"'s role, in some kinds of relations between 
> > human beings and his environment, is posed in strictly semiotic 
> > terms along the book...
> > Can we
> > find something more about the role of "index" in Vygotsky theory of
sign?
> > How
> > does Russian semiotics designate Pierce typology of sings, for instance?
> >
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > Achilles.
> > >From Brazil.
> >
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>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
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