[Xmca-l] Re: meaning and sense

[Douglas Williams <djwdoc@yahoo.com>]

Ah--there we go. 
Though second language development is an interesting idea, and not, as I recall anyway, something particularly noted in the cog linguistics literature--but I am out of date. 

One of the intriguing things that has turned up of late is the degree to which gender identity of inanimate objects in langauges tends to affect the implicit understandings of these objects to speakers of that language, as utterly arbitrary as these gender designations so often seem to be. In German, a bridge (Die Brücke) is more likely to be thought of as beautiful, graceful, possessing charm; in Spanish, a bridge (el puente) is more likely to be thought of as strong, powerful, sturdy.

"When French speakers saw a picture of a fork (la fourchette), most of them wanted it to speak in a woman’s voice, but Spanish speakers, for whom el tenedor is masculine, preferred a gravelly male voice for it. More recently, psychologists have even shown that “gendered languages” imprint gender traits for objects so strongly in the mind that these associations obstruct speakers’ ability to commit information to memory."


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


As for those of us in English, we have the illusion of being freer to tell cross-gendered stories about our tableware--though not perhaps any freer, really....

http://shine.yahoo.com/healthy-living/why-time-think-fork-knife-spoon-213800647.html


Rather reminiscent of Bruner and Postman's trick with the red ace of spades, n'est-ce pas? And thus the world of our illusions peeks through to say "boo!"

Cheers,
Doug


________________________________
 From: Sungwoo Kim <sungwookim92@gmail.com>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:38 AM
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: meaning and sense
 

Larry,

Thank you for this wonderful reference. I will check the volume. Actually,
my dissertation was on a cognitive linguistic approach to second language
development. I used conceptual metaphor as a mediational tool to encourage
second language writers to reflect upon and transform their composition
practices. The impact was quite impressive, at least to me.

By the way, I am still pondering upon your previous mail. I am inclined to
conceptualize meaning as the process based on embodied cognition rather
than a kind of mental representation. So I would like to ask you whether
you are referring specifically to Vygotsky's use of the term "meaning and
sense" or a broader array of theoretical concepts in linguistics, including
the recent development in cognitive science.

-- Sungwoo


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sungwoo,
> I would like to recommend a book that gives a good summary of the history
> of understanding of metaphor that puts your question in a larger context.
> The book is "Communicative Praxis and the Space of Subjectivity" by Calvin
> O Schrag.
> Chapter One is "Figures of Discourse" [pages 17 to 31].
>  Schrag is critiquing the subjectivism and emotivist BIAS which has
> dominated views on metaphor, and explores an understanding of metaphor as
> central to ways of knowing and communicating.
> Here is a sample of his approach in his commentary on Mary Hesse's book
> "Models and Analogies in Science":
> Schrag comments,
>
> "Although Hess has succeeded in freeing metaphor from its bondage to the
> noncognitive, emotive, and merely decorative, the liberation of metaphor AS
> an autonomous form of disclosure and communication has not been fully
> attained in her thought. Metaphor remains a supplement to the reductive
> MODEL of scientific explanation, achieving reference only through a
> circuitous linkage with the explanandum of the primary SYSTEM."
> My emphasis to focus on how metaphor, model, system are concepts that
> participate within communicative praxis.
>
> This chapter, "Figures AS Discourse" gives many further references and
> leads to follow if you are fascinated with the transformative power of
> metaphor.
> Larry
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sungwoo,
> > Thanks for participating in this online chat. I am aware of this approach
> > that says metaphors are central to our ways of thinking. I will read the
> > article you sent. My curiosity is in the question of words *carrying*
> > thought [which would imply thought comes first and is then put into the
> > chosen word that *represents* the thought [as primary], or if the word IS
> > thought. If metaphor is thought [not a way to bring our thoughts out into
> > the shared world] then metaphors of thought AS *PICTURES* [frames] in
> > contrast to metaphors of thought AS *VOICE*  actually means we are
> > participating in different KINDS of thinking [conversations externally or
> > internally]
> > Sungwoo, I am in over my head but am curious about your question. This
> > site is the place to be if you want to go deeper into this question.
> > Vygotsky's exploration of the distinction between meaning and sense leads
> > right into the heart of your question.
> > I will read your article attached as I am fascinated with the place of
> > metaphor in our modes of thinking.
> > I do believe the notion that the concept *metaphor* is itself a metaphor
> > DERIVED from the practice of *metapherein* [the verb *to transfer*] which
> > originally described a CONCRETE activity
> > This insight may be relevant.
> > The book "Rhetoric as Philosophy" by Ernesto Grassi [1980] which explores
> > Vico and his response to the *new science* may be a lead to follow.
> Shotter
> > in his book refer's to Grassi's understanding of metaphor.
> >  Others on this site have explored the relation of metaphor and thinking.
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Sungwoo Kim <sungwookim92@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Larry Purss
> >>
> >> This is my first time to use this mailing list. I hope this message will
> >> reach you somehow.
> >>
> >> I cannot directly address your questions due to my limited knowledge in
> >> phenomenology, but recent work in cognitive linguistics, especially in
> the
> >> field of conceptual metaphor theory can shed some light on them.
> >>
> >> The traditional view on metaphor has regarded it as an ornamental device
> >> in
> >> rhetorical process. Thus it does not have direct impact upon our
> thinking
> >> process.However, a large body of work in cognitive linguistics since
> >> Lakoff
> >> and Johnson's seminal work *Metaphors We Live By *(1980) is showing that
> >> metaphor is not merely rhetorical device, but a set of thinking
> patterns,
> >> some of which are universal and some culture-specific. This means that
> >> using new metaphors can shape and direct our thinking processes. To put
> it
> >> another way, new metaphors can lead to new ways of thinking. For
> >> example, Thibodeau and Boroditsky show that different kinds of metaphor
> >> can
> >> have substantial impact on our reasoning. Here's part of the abstract.
> >>
> >> "The way we talk about complex and abstract ideas is suffused with
> >> metaphor. In five experiments, we explore how these metaphors influence
> >> the
> >> way that we reason about complex issues and forage for further
> information
> >> about them. We find that even the subtlest instantiation of a metaphor
> >> (via
> >> a single word) can have a powerful influence over how people attempt to
> >> solve social problems like crime and how they gather information to make
> >> 'well-informed decisions."
> >>
> >> http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/crime-metaphors.pdf
> >>
> >> This principle of "metaphor-as-tihnking-pattern" has been adopted by
> many
> >> practitioners as well as researchers. Now it is applied in many fields
> >> including counseling, consulting, web and application design, political
> >> strategy planning, marketing, and so on. (Of course there are some
> >> cautious
> >> voices about the power of metaphor, too. e.g.
> >> http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2013/01/political-language)
> >>
> >> Sungwoo
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Andy,
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for keepin
> >> > Thanks for keeping this topic of sense and meaning alive.
> >> > Mike also is drawing our attention to the mystery of the creative
> >> process
> >> > with this comment: "I agree, very clearly statements of the
> >> sense/meaning
> >> > relation, along with the Mandelshtam line, " I forgot the thought I
> >> wanted
> >> > to say, and thought, unembodied, returned to the hall of shadows."
> >> > Thought, unembodied, returns to the hall of shadows.
> >> > I have been reflecting on the phenomenological method or *bias* to
> >> > prioritize *showing* as an action which brings thoughts from the
> >> shadows.
> >> > The concept or term "metaphor" which can itself be considered a
> >> metaphor.
> >> > Metaphor is derived from the verb *metapherein" which means "to
> >> transfer"
> >> > which originally described a CONCRETE reality [Ernesto Grassi].
> >> > Therefore *presenting* a new metaphor IS an argument or a reason [a
> >> showing
> >> > in phenomenological discourse]
> >> > The question is if presenting [as a showing or gesture] a metaphor is
> >> > presenting a *vehicle* or an "egg" which "carries" thoughts from
> >> speaker to
> >> > hearer [which suggests the word is then decoded and RE-presented in
> the
> >> > listener's "mind"
> >> > Or, on the other hand, is presenting a metaphor actually metapherein
> [a
> >> > verb] which "transfers" [shifts, turns] knowing in a phenomenological
> >> "aha"
> >> > moment? Metaphor AS showing or presenting [FORMING sense], not
> metaphor
> >> as
> >> > a *carrier* of thought which *represents* the sense of the speaker.
> >> > I am "over my head" in these realms and my "logic" may be faulty, but
> >> the
> >> > power of metaphor as "hinge" or "pivot" seems central.
> >> > Peter Jones made a comment on literacy and "representation"
> >> > Ernesto Grassi is making the point that presenting [showing] a new
> >> metaphor
> >> > IS an argument producing a type of knowledge [sense]
> >> > Can metapherein be *seen* [picture language] as new and novel ways of
> >> > acting as transfering *sense* to *pictures* as a *psychological
> >> instrument*
> >> > and thus as a cultural resource? The ACT of 'transfer' as presentation
> >> > within metaphor [something AS something else] understood as a
> >> psychological
> >> > and cultural tool, a PRACTICAL intersubjective resource with which
> [and
> >> > THROUGH which we think, act, and perceive.
> >> > Sense AS perception & action mediated through felt experience which is
> >> > "presented" [shown] through *turning* objects to present other sides
> and
> >> > therefore to perceive other aspects. Polysemy through metepherein as
> one
> >> > *way* of knowing as argumentation.
> >> > This is questioning the relation between *forming* as
> >> presentation/showing
> >> > &
> >> > *formed* as representation of what was previously presented.
> >> > Merleau-Ponty's dynamic between sedimentation/spontaneityg this topic
> of
> >> > sense and meaning alive.
> >> >
> >> > Mike also is drawing our attention to the mystery of the creative
> >> process
> >> > with this comment: "I agree, very clearly statements of the
> >> sense/meaning
> >> > relation, along with the Mandelshtam line, " I forgot the thought I
> >> wanted
> >> > to say, and thought, unembodied, returned to the hall of shadows."
> >> >
> >> > Thought, unembodied, returns to the hall of shadows.
> >> > I have been reflecting on the phenomenological method or *bias* to
> >> > prioritize *showing* as an action which brings thoughts from the
> >> shadows.
> >> >
> >> > The concept or term "metaphor" which can itself be considered a
> >> metaphor.
> >> > Metaphor is derived from the verb *metapherein" which means "to
> >> transfer"
> >> > which originally described a CONCRETE reality [Ernesto Grassi].
> >> > Therefore *presenting* a new metaphor IS an argument or a reason [a
> >> showing
> >> > in phenomenological discourse]
> >> > The question is if presenting [as a showing or gesture] a metaphor is
> >> > presenting a *vehicle* or an "egg" which "carries" thoughts from
> >> speaker to
> >> > hearer [which suggests the word is then decoded and RE-presented in
> the
> >> > listener's "mind"
> >> > Or, on the other hand, is presenting a metaphor actually metapherein
> [a
> >> > verb] which "transfers" [shifts, turns] knowing in a phenomenological
> >> "aha"
> >> > moment? Metaphor AS showing or presenting [FORMING sense], not
> metaphor
> >> as
> >> > a *carrier* of thought which *represents* the sense of the speaker.
> >> > I am "over my head" in these realms and my "logic" may be faulty, but
> >> the
> >> > power of metaphor as "hinge" or "pivot" seems central.
> >> > Peter Jones made a comment on literacy and "representation"
> >> > Ernesto Grassi is making the point that presenting [showing] a new
> >> metaphor
> >> > IS an argument producing a type of knowledge [sense]
> >> > Can metapherein be *seen* [picture language] as new and novel ways of
> >> > acting as transfering *sense* by showing and creating metaphors
> >> > as *pictures* as a *psychological instrument* and thus as a cultural
> >> > resource? The ACT of 'transfer' as presentation within metaphor
> >> [something
> >> > AS something else] understood as a psychological and cultural tool, a
> >> > PRACTICAL intersubjective resource with which [and THROUGH which] we
> >> think,
> >> > act, and perceive.
> >> > Greg, I wonder if this showing is always volitional [under our
> control]
> >> or
> >> > if we spontaneously "respond" intersubjectively?
> >> >
> >> >  Sense AS perception & action mediated through felt experience which
> is
> >> > "presented" [shown] through *turning* objects to present other sides
> and
> >> > therefore to perceive other aspects. Polysemy through metepherein as
> one
> >> > *way* of knowing as argumentation. Intersubjective not subjective.
> >> > This is questioning the relation between
> >> >  *forming* as presentation/showing
> >> > &
> >> >  *formed* as representation of what was previously presented.
> >> >
> >> > Merleau-Ponty's dynamic between sedimentation/spontaneity as
> expressive
> >> > cognition.
> >> >
> >> > I hope I am making sense in my drawing attention to the relation
> between
> >> > thoughts and shadows.
> >> > Huw, asked if there is a question here? I would say the question is
> the
> >> > models of "sense" as presentations [showings] and representations.
> >> > Merleau-Ponty understood words AS GESTURES.
> >> > Is there any "truth" to this notion?
> >> > Larry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I was just looking into this business about Vygotsky imputing
> >> excessive
> >> > > stablility to word meaning. The following key passage from Chapter 7
> >> of
> >> > > "Thinking and Speech" does not, it appers to me, to imply such
> >> stability:
> >> > >
> >> > >    "First, in inner speech, we find a predominance of the word’s
> sense
> >> > >    over its meaning. Paulhan significantly advanced the
> psychological
> >> > >    analysis of speech by introducing the distinction between a
> word’s
> >> > >    sense and meaning. A word’s sense is the aggregate of all the
> >> > >    psychological facts that arise in our consciousness as a result
> of
> >> > >    the word. Sense is a dynamic, fluid, and complex formation which
> >> has
> >> > >    several zones that vary in their stability. Meaning is only one
> of
> >> > >    these zones of the sense that the word acquires in the context of
> >> > >    speech. It is the most stable, unified, and precise of these
> zones.
> >> > >    In different contexts, a word’s sense changes. In contrast,
> meaning
> >> > >    is a comparatively fixed and stable point, one that remains
> >> constant
> >> > >    with all the changes of the word’s sense that are associated with
> >> > >    its use in various contexts. Change in the word’s sense is a
> basic
> >> > >    factor in the semantic analysis of speech. The actual meaning of
> >> the
> >> > >    word is inconstant. In one operation, the word emerges with one
> >> > >    meaning; in another, another is acquired. The dynamic nature of
> >> > >    meaning leads us to Paulhan’s problem, to the problem of the
> >> > >    relationship between meaning and sense. Isolated in the lexicon,
> >> the
> >> > >    word has only one meaning. However, this meaning is nothing more
> >> > >    than a potential that can only be realized in living speech, and
> in
> >> > >    living speech meaning is only a cornerstone in the edifice of
> >> sense."
> >> > >
> >> > > As I read this, the stability of meaning is merely relative to that
> of
> >> > > sense, i.e., in the context of speech, rather than "teh aggregate of
> >> all
> >> > > psychological facts." He is not at all denying the fact of polysemy
> or
> >> > the
> >> > > cultural and historical migration of meaning.
> >> > >
> >> > > Andy
> >> > > mike cole wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> I agree, very clearly statements of the sense/meaning relation,
> along
> >> > with
> >> > >> the Mandelshtam line, " I forgot the thought I wanted to say, and
> >> > thought,
> >> > >> unembodied, returned to the hall of shadows."
> >> > >>
> >> > >> In the quote here, I think LSV is somewhat overstating the
> stability
> >> of
> >> > >> meaning across contexts; yes relative to the microgenetic processes
> >> of
> >> > >> sense making capturable with
> >> > >> modern technologies, but not totally "context independent." Even
> >> > >> dictionary
> >> > >> meanings change, as LSV was well aware from his interest in the
> >> history
> >> > of
> >> > >> words in relation to their appearance in children's vocabularies in
> >> > >> ontogeny.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Keeping the simultaneous relevance of several time scales in mind
> in
> >> > these
> >> > >> discussions seems really important, as hard as it is to do.
> >> > >> mike
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Peace,
> >> Sungwoo Kim
> >> Learner, Teacher, Researcher, Blogger
> >> Photos: *https://there.jux.com/*
> >> Personal: http://www.sungwookim.com
> >>
> >
> >
>



-- 

Peace,
Sungwoo Kim
Learner, Teacher, Researcher, Blogger
Photos: *https://there.jux.com/*
Personal: http://www.sungwookim.com