Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Vygotskian 1960s lobby @ Harvard, broader--Boston area)

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hanfmann and Kasinin were around Cambridge and were obviously important
figures. They did early
work on schizophrenia using the Sakharov blocks that had some influence.

(How about expanding your nomenclature to" Cambridge Admiration Society?")

mike

On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>wrote:

> I am virtually totally ignorant about Salvador E. Luria, so if anybody
> would be able and willing to demonstrate a link
> between Salvador and Alexander or S. Luria and L.S. Vygotsky, I would
> certainly appreciate that.
>
> As to Teuber, of MIT from 1961, I am not so sure that the person would
> fully qualify as Vygotsky's admirer of 1960s: instead, I guess
> he is better described as a scholar of strong holistic leanings most
> directly influenced by Lashley and yet another great German -- Kurt
> Goldstein.
> However, he might have been sympathetic to Vygotsky-Luria project (if only
> he was aware about it), which is, by the way,
> suggested in Toulmin's 1979 rejoinder to critique of his Mozart of
> Psychology. In any case, the same holistic Zeitgeist seems to be here, as
> well.
>
> Finally, I think all these lobbyists were pretty well paid: their own
> research findings lavishly paid them back for their curiosity, initiative,
> and scientific brokerage ;)...
>
> AY
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> *To:* Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 25, 2012 1:07:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Vygotskian 1960s lobby @
> Harvard, broader--Boston area)
>
> If you add Hans Lukas Teuber it might be relevant. And of course, Salvador
> Luria. Interesting.
> A lobby. Who paid the lobbiest do you think?
> :-)
> mike
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 7:28 AM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> Yes Mike, the  Vygotskian lobby at Harvard is not what is often talked
> about, and is certainly a part of the history
> of informal personal networks, like, e.g. the Vygotsky Circle.
>
> The beauty of informal personal networks in science is in the fact that --
> unlike scientific "schools" -- they really exist
> and operate in the real world, although not so visible as other "visible
> colleges". Also, note, such informal networks do not
> have to include the members formally affiliated with an institution and
> not necessarily representing one and the same field of knowledge
> and/or social practice. As to Harvard, I have not done a really deep
> research on that -- just a brief superficial study for my
> current writing -- therefore, only the tip of the iceberg has been
> detected.
>
> The circle of Vygotsky-Luria admirers in Harvard as of late 1950s was
> fairly limited in numbers, which was compensated with the relative
> weight of these individuals, most prominent and highly influential in
> their respective fields. Also, note: perhaps it is more precise to talk
> about
> Bostonian lobby, which includes MIT and the suburbia like Worcester,
> rather than just Harvard only. Which makes us somewhat reformulate
> the topic as "Boston area as the stronghold of the Vtygotskians in 1950s,
> 1960s, and 1970s). Anyway, the list of the individuals on the very top
> includes:
>
> 1. Roman Jakobson, linguist, Harvard, MIT
>
> 2. Jerome Bruner, cognitivist, Harvard, etc.
>
> 3. Sheldon H. "Shep" White, developmental psychologist, of Harvard from
> 1965 (many thanks to Vera for this important information!)
>
> 3. Norman Geschwind, neurologist, Harvard I guess (see Toulmin, The Mozart
> of Psychology, 1978)
>
> According to Valsiner's 1988 Developmental Psychology in the Soviet Union,
> back in the 1960s there were quite a few references to
> semi-Vygotsky's semi-Thinking and Speech that was published in 1962 as
> Thought and Language at MIT Press. So, a thorough analysis of these
> references would help us reveal the "Vygotskian network" in North America
> in 1960s, which certainly constitutes a subsection of those authors who
> referred to Vygotsky back then.
>
> Anyway, these and several others constituted the group of Vygotsky's
> admirers in the United States that Bruner mentioned in his 1967 paper that
> was
>  published as an editorial in the journal Soviet Psychology, in which he
> lamented that although the book had been published already five years
> before,
> no "Vygotsky boom" occurred. Also, these individuals stood behind quite a
> few of Vygotsky's publications in English in 1960s. Part of this story
> was revealed by Bruner himself in his interview with Mike on the DVD to
> the last edition of Luria's autobiography. By the way, it is worth to
> transcribe it
> and publish, as a written text. I even know where we could publish it :)
>
> AY
>
> P.S. As to Kohlberg and Flavell, neither was a Vygotskian in any sense,
> yet it is interesting to see how, indirectly, most likely through
> Piaget's involvement with Jakobson-Luria-Bruner-Hanfmann-Vakar translation
> and publication project of 1962 the "Vygotskianism" made to
> into other, allied fields and intellectual clans in the West.
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> *To:* Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, June 25, 2012 12:15:34 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Kohlberg et al., 1968 testing
> Vygotsky)
>
> Anton-- This is the first i have ever heard about a vygotskian lobby at
> harvard.
> Who were they? Bruner wrote the intro to the first edition of Thought and
> Language, but a lobby?
> Kohlberg was basically a Piagetian to my limited knowledge.
> So its news to me. What does it portend?
> mike
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> Interested, indeed.
>
>
> Most curious, were this book of 1950s, more likely 1960s, but please find
> the reference, that would help.
>
>
> AY
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 9:49:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Kohlberg et al., 1968 testing
> Vygotsky)
>
> It is late here so maybe my memory is not 100%... But last year I remenber
> reading a book from David Ausubel were while criticizing Piaget he cites
> Vygotsky, or that is what I recall, and the book first edition was on the
> 50's or 60's... I can try to find this if anyone is interested..
>
> Wagner Luiz Schmit
> Brazil
>
> 2012/6/24 Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>
>
> > I am thinking Kohlberg got his knowledge of Vygotsky through Piaget.
> >  Didn't Piaget write his response to Vygotsky in 1962?  I don't know why
> > but that sticks in my mind.  Kohlberg was sending at least some of his
> > students to Geneva during that period.  Possibly one or more of those
> > people brought Vygotsky and Thought and Language back.  I remember
> talking
> > some years back with somebody who was in Geneva during the period who
> said
> > Piaget kept saying Vygotsky misunderstood him.  Who knows, but it seems
> > plausible.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Anton Yasnitsky
> > Sent: Sun 6/24/2012 9:16 PM
> > To: Martin Packer; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Kohlberg et al., 1968 testing
> > Vygotsky)
> >
> >
> >
> > True and thanks for a copy, but there is no evidence (as of now) whether
> > Flavell new and was utilizing any of Vygotsky in his paper of 1966, -- is
> > there?
> >
> >
> > ... But, frankly, who cares, after all :)
> >
> >
> > AY
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
> > To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> >  Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 8:43:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] empirical evidence (Kohlberg et al., 1968 testing
> > Vygotsky)
> >
> > But Flavell had presented a paper on the same topic 4 years earlier, and
> > was credited in a footnote.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 24, 2012, at 7:38 PM, Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> >
> > > For Vygotsky, Kohlberg, of Harvard, certainly would not need mediation
> > of Flavell: the book had come out in 1962, and was orchestrated by the
> > bunch of guys at Harvard,
> > > which clearly was a stronghold of Vygotsky's admirers back then, i.e.
> in
> > 1960s and 1970s.
> > __________________________________________
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