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Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images

It's been a great exercise Mike and rich with problems. I think the idea of discerning a cultural message in a collection of similar things is a great exercise in psychology. Obviously no-one is proposing the *separation* of thining and perception.
I just know I have problems with perception: I don't hear the words to songs usually, I easily make silly mistakes assembling equipment, I miss things when reading. I try to overcome these problems, but I know they are part of my personality. I guess I don't fancy accepting myself as a generally deficient person. I prefer to think there are different styles of learning, different "ways of working" and this particular exercise really brought out a weakness of mine. SHould I abandon all hope? :) 

Andy

mike cole wrote:

I agree with Martin here, Andy. I find these images interesting precisely
because they appeared to me to be communicable examples of processes that
LSV writes about, but which remain pretty empty abstractions for many. As
this exchange makes clear, even evoking a distinction between perception and
conception is difficult, let alone between something like "seeing two green
dots" versus "two peas in a pod" and believing that the former is perceptual
while the latter is conceptual.

Oh well, at least I thought the examples were vehicles for communication of
the processes that LSV writes about. Seems they might not be after all!
mike

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:


Andy, Mike,

I've argued in this space a couple of time that for LSV perception and
thinking are intimately related. As thinking changes, the world is viewed
differently. LSV writes frequently of the 'generalized perception' that
arises from acquiring language. So no we shouldn't conflate the two, but nor
should we keep them artificially separate and think that one develops but
the others is unchanging.

Martin

On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:


I don't think so Mike. I think there is a danger there in conflating

perception and thinking. ... And also of subjective acquisition and
objective development of concepts.

Andy

mike cole wrote:

Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
And rise to the concrete if we can.
My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of

abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we

"see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics

between scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently
configures systems of higher psychological functions?

mike
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:

ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

   Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker
   now! I feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I
   failed to see the cultural reference. I picked up the
   abstract-theoretical reference, indeed I'd even already used No. 2
   to illustrate "Gestalt", but still failed to see the real-world,
   cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker, always an abstract
   thinker, no matter how many books you read.
   Andy
   White, Phillip wrote:
       Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
       marriage, love and marriage, go together like a horse and
       carriage. Dad would say to Mother, "You can't have one without
       the other."
       So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.
       Phillip
       Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
       -----Original Message-----
       From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
       Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
       <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>"
       <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu

       Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind,
       Culture,Activity<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu

       Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>"
       <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>, "eXtended
       Mind, Culture,
              Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:

xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>

       Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
       I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second
       of two new
       yorker covers we have
       been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of
       each and
       different approaches to their
       interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).
       What both images seem to have in common is that an overall
       concept covers
       all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
       perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if
       you are
       working upward from the constituents, but still have not got
       "IT" the little
       its do not "add up."
       So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as
       "two green
       dots." But after one takes
       in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what
       look like
       ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
       month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there
       on, there are
       functional relations among the parts and those functions have
       changed in
       some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
       two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i
       a pod" and
       you might notice that it is
       kind of strange that they are only partly green.
       I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about
       in a more
       consistent way.
       One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires
       voobrazhenie,
       into-image-making, and the process of
       voobrazhenie is path dependent.
       What would LSV think?
       mike
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*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
Videos: http://vimeo.com/user3478333/videos
Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss


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*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss


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