Re: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I agree with Martin here, Andy. I find these images interesting precisely
because they appeared to me to be communicable examples of processes that
LSV writes about, but which remain pretty empty abstractions for many. As
this exchange makes clear, even evoking a distinction between perception and
conception is difficult, let alone between something like "seeing two green
dots" versus "two peas in a pod" and believing that the former is perceptual
while the latter is conceptual.

Oh well, at least I thought the examples were vehicles for communication of
the processes that LSV writes about. Seems they might not be after all!
mike

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

> Andy, Mike,
>
> I've argued in this space a couple of time that for LSV perception and
> thinking are intimately related. As thinking changes, the world is viewed
> differently. LSV writes frequently of the 'generalized perception' that
> arises from acquiring language. So no we shouldn't conflate the two, but nor
> should we keep them artificially separate and think that one develops but
> the others is unchanging.
>
> Martin
>
> On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:35 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> > I don't think so Mike. I think there is a danger there in conflating
> perception and thinking. ... And also of subjective acquisition and
> objective development of concepts.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >> Yes indeed, beware empty abstractions, Andy!
> >> And rise to the concrete if we can.
> >> My major point in that note was that in moving between "levels" of
> abstraction contained with the image, our perception, how we
> >> "see" the constituents changes. Might this be akin to the dynamics
> between scientific and everyday concepts, and/or between differently
> configures systems of higher psychological functions?
> >> mike
> >> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>    Well, we're all hanging out for the next issue of The New Yorker
> >>    now! I feel really "exposed" by this exercise. :) In both cases I
> >>    failed to see the cultural reference. I picked up the
> >>    abstract-theoretical reference, indeed I'd even already used No. 2
> >>    to illustrate "Gestalt", but still failed to see the real-world,
> >>    cultural meaning. :( Once an abstract-thinker, always an abstract
> >>    thinker, no matter how many books you read.
> >>    Andy
> >>    White, Phillip wrote:
> >>        Well, certainly, Mike, I thing that knowing the song "Love and
> >>        marriage, love and marriage, go together like a horse and
> >>        carriage. Dad would say to Mother, "You can't have one without
> >>        the other."
> >>        So, yes, two peas in a pod, a pair of shoes, and a pair of eyes.
> >>        Phillip
> >>        Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >>        -----Original Message-----
> >>        From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
> >>        Sender: "xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>        <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>"
> >>        <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >>        Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 19:57:24 To: eXtended Mind,
> >>        Culture,Activity<xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>
> >>        Reply-To: "lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>"
> >>        <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>, "eXtended
> >>        Mind, Culture,
> >>               Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>        Subject: [xmca] comparing NewYorker images
> >>        I want to use the occasion of martin coming late to the second
> >>        of two new
> >>        yorker covers we have
> >>        been disscussing, to talk about some interesting properties of
> >>        each and
> >>        different approaches to their
> >>        interpretation (I have still to deal with local microgenises).
> >>        What both images seem to have in common is that an overall
> >>        concept covers
> >>        all the examples. One you see the overall concept, you
> >>        perception/interpretation of the constituents changes. And, if
> >>        you are
> >>        working upward from the constituents, but still have not got
> >>        "IT" the little
> >>        its do not "add up."
> >>        So someone sees the two eyeball shaped almost green things as
> >>        "two green
> >>        dots." But after one takes
> >>        in the heart *near* the top, and then the two bells with what
> >>        look like
> >>        ribbons, on may think (June=prominent
> >>        month for getting married, weddding bells...... and from there
> >>        on, there are
> >>        functional relations among the parts and those functions have
> >>        changed in
> >>        some cases where the function is difficult to discern, like those
> >>        two partly green eye shaped things. Now they become "two peas i
> >>        a pod" and
> >>        you might notice that it is
> >>        kind of strange that they are only partly green.
> >>        I am pretty sure this is what Paula and David were writing about
> >>        in a more
> >>        consistent way.
> >>        One thing I am pretty certain of. Getting "it" requires
> >>        voobrazhenie,
> >>        into-image-making, and the process of
> >>        voobrazhenie is path dependent.
> >>        What would LSV think?
> >>        mike
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> >>    --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>    *Andy Blunden*
> >>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/<http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><
> http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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> >>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
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> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/scss
> >
> >
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