RE: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

[Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>]

What a great example (so situated in its culture)! This reminded me of  a study by Ellen Langer which involved getting adults to 'play' at being pilots, using a simulator, dressing up etc. and showed that in this situation people with poor eyesight were able to discriminate (e.g. wing markings on other planes) at a level significantly better than their measured visual acuity would 'normally' allow (described in her 1997 book, 'The power of mindful learning').

This made me wonder whether Vygotsky may actually have got things the wrong way round when he said that in play a child is a head taller than himself - might it not be that out of play a child is a head shorter than himself? Greenough's studies of brain development in rats was widely misrepresented as showing that stimulated rats develop bigger brains when actually the 'stimulated' rats had a more normal experience than the 'normal' lab rats in their empty wire cages - what he really showed was that experientially deprived rats end up with smaller brains (not that I am suggesting that bigger brains should be an educational goal!).

The 'natural' condition for children is to be supported and enhanced by the artificial mediation provided by their culture - what we often remove them from when we want to find out what they can do. Most of our data seems to come from slightly confused children who are doing their best to establish contingency with strangers who ask them to do unfamiliar things. How much can this tell us about what children CAN do?

All the best,

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: 10 February 2010 03:00
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

Just in case Peg's last remark is not clear. Maniulenko in Soviet Psychology
and
Ivanova replication a few years ago in JREEP. Kids who, in play (guarding
Lenin's tomb)
at the right age, stand still longer than they do when asked to stand
without moving. But
younger kids do not differ in play/"instruction"condition not do older kids,
but for totally difference reasons.

See Griffin and Cole, 1984  "Current activity for the future"
mike
(Which contrast strongly with our current situationof "current activity for
the past."--

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> emulate = copy omitting what doesn't effect the outcome;
> imitate = copy all, whether or not it effects the outcome;
> (overimitate = copy all, even when the non-utilitarian nature of some step
> is flagged wildly)
>
> Our babies and the chimpanzees emulate no matter what; our 3 year olds
> emulate when copying a cruddy videotape but they imitate a live
> demonstration; our 5 year olds imitate no matter what.
> How widespread is the "our" -- are there cultural differences? are there
> social practice differences?
>
> Hmmmm, how familiar that parallelogram data pattern is... (standing still
> while playing guard vs. standing still outside of play situation?)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Steve Gabosch
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 8:19 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>
> Thank you for all these, Peg.  This is implied in the abstracts, but to
> make
> sure I grasp it, would you clarify the difference between emulation and
> imitation?
> Thanks,
> - Steve
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Peg Griffin wrote:
>
> > I sent these articles and abstracts to you earlier, Mike; and I am not
> > sure if they have they entered this discussion yet.  Apologies if they
> > are repetitive or off topic Comparing babies, toddlers and
> > preschoolers -- seems pre-schoolers is more than just an opaque
> > expression!
> > Have the older children learned the "over-imitation" in certain social
> > interactions in certain cultures or is this age effect more general?
> >
> > Emulation and "overemulation" in the social learning of causally
> > opaque versus causally transparent tool use by 23- and 30-month-olds.
> > Nicola McGuigan and Andrew Whiten  Journal of Experimental Child
> > Psychology Volume 104, Issue 4, December 2009, Pages 367-381
> > Abstract: We explored whether a rising trend to blindly "overcopy" a
> > model's causally irrelevant actions between 3 and 5 years of age,
> > found in previous studies, predicts a more circumspect disposition in
> > much younger children.
> > Children between 23 and 30 months of age observed a model use a tool
> > to retrieve a reward from either a transparent or opaque puzzle box.
> > Some of
> > the tool actions were irrelevant to reward retrieval, whereas others
> > were causally necessary. The causal relevance of the tool actions was
> > highly visible in the transparent box condition, allowing the
> > participants to potentially discriminate which actions were necessary.
> > In contrast, the causal efficacy of the tool was hidden in the opaque
> > box condition.
> > When
> > both the 23- and 30-month-olds were presented with either the
> > transparent or opaque box, they were most commonly emulative rather
> > than imitative, performing only the causally necessary actions. This
> > strategy contrasts with the blanket imitation of both causally
> > irrelevant and causally relevant actions witnessed at 3 and 5 years of
> > age in our previous studies. The results challenge a current view of
> > 1- and 2-year-olds as largely "blind imitators"; instead, they show
> > that these young children have a variety of social learning processes
> > available to them. More broadly the emerging patterns of results
> > suggest, rather counterintuitively, that the human species becomes
> > more imitative rather than less imitative with age, in some ways
> > "mindlessly" so.
> >
> > Imitation of causally opaque versus causally transparent tool use by
> > 3- and
> > 5-year-old children. Cognitive Development, Volume 22, Issue 3,
> > July-September 2007, Pages 353-364. Nicola McGuigan, Andrew Whiten,
> > Emma Flynn, Victoria Horner
> > Abstract: We investigated whether the tendency to imitate or emulate
> > is influenced by the availability of causal information, and the
> > amount of information available in a display. Three and 5-year-old
> > children were shown by either a live or video model how to obtain a
> > reward from either a clear or an opaque puzzle box. Some of the
> > actions in the sequence were causally relevant to retrieving the
> > reward, whereas others were irrelevant.
> > The clear
> > box made the causally irrelevant actions visible, whereas the opaque
> > box prevented them from being seen. Results indicated that both 3- and
> > 5-year-old children imitated the irrelevant actions regardless of the
> > availability of causal information following a live demonstration. In
> > contrast, the 3-year-olds employed an emulative approach, omitting
> > irrelevant actions, when the information available was degraded in a
> > video demonstration. However, the 5-year-olds were unaffected by the
> > degraded information and employed an imitative approach. We suggest
> > that imitation develops to be such an adaptive human strategy that it
> > may often be employed at the expense of task efficiency.
> >
> > Emulation, imitation, overimitation and the scope of culture for child
> > and chimpanzee. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, B
> > (2009)
> > Volume: 364. A Whiten, N Mcguigan, S Marshall-pescini, L M Hopper
> > Selective imitation in child and chimpanzee: A window on the construal
> > of others' actions. In S. Hurley & N. Chater (Eds.), Perspectives on
> > imitation:
> > A Whiten, V Horner, S Marshall-pescini From (2005)
> >
> > Peg
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
> > bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:06 PM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
> >
> > I think Sasha's idea is perfectly plausible.
> > So who out there can run the experiment??
> > "-)
> > mike
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Alexander Surmava (Sasha) sent me some keen observations on the
> >> plastic box experiment and predicts that if a child was left alone
> >> with the clear plastic box and their candy prizes long without adult
> >> observation, the child would go the road of the chimps and discard
> >> the unnecessary moves.  This suggests an interesting extension of
> >> this experiment which could offer additional insight into the social
> >> nature of over-imitation that Rod and Mike are discussing.
> >>
> >> - Steve
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 7, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with your analysis, Rod. The application of "over" to this
> >> form of
> >>> imitation obscures the sources of reward for the children in
> >>> imitating adults. I was trying to indicate that this phenomenon fits
> >>> well the idea of the special role of social others in earliest
> >>> infancy evidenced as part of mutual imitation.
> >>>
> >>> I know what you mean about the problems of working time and a half
> >>> while engaging in these discussions. No one can read and respond to
> >>> everything-- almost certainly no one wants to! But the presence of a
> >>> diverse and changing group of "chatters," while frustrating at
> >>> times, is also a source of dependably helpful, if often unexpected,
> >>> insight and enrichment of what do in our "paid for" lives.
> >>>
> >>> Our in again out again discussion of the special qualities of human
> >>> sociality and its development being a case in point.
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mike,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the
> >>>> premise that the 'rational' thing to do (in order to obtain the
> >>>> reward - sweet or sticker
> >>>> - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or
> >>>> redundant (overimitation has different connotations from, for
> >>>> example, 'superimitation'). Part of the problem with this, I think,
> >>>> is that it doesn't sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for
> >>>> children, the 'reward'
> >>>> may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the
> >>>> simple getting of stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed
> >>>> that doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of
> >>>> symptoms if the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets
> >>>> as they entered the consulting room - gift giving has powerful
> >>>> social implications!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-
> >>>> sug
> >>>> ar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here
> >>>> while also managing a more than full time job - at the moment I am
> >>>> still working with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not
> >>>> to answer a long and detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog
> >>>> the converstion etc.) and my dugout sometimes feels more like a
> >>>> worryingly unstable log!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> All the best,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rod
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
> >>>> *Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
> >>>> *To:* Rod Parker-Rees
> >>>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY
> >>>> adults do it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply
> >>>> that the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it
> >>>> possible to interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of
> >>>> mutual imitation seen in earliest infancy.
> >>>>
> >>>> Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
> >>>> seeking it as follows:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://books.google.com/books?
> >>>> id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=
> >>>> Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than
> >>>> +oth
> >>>> ers+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James
> >>>> +Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=
> >>>> c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw
> >>>> &hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=
> >>>> book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v
> >>>> =onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures
> >>>> %2
> >>>> 0have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C
> >>>> %20
> >>>> Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
> >>>>
> >>>> This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of
> >>>> deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this
> >>>> chapter particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make:
> >>>> that aesthetic sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related,
> >>>> topic for another message.
> >>>>
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> >>>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick
> >>>> boxes as 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were
> >>>> just to get a reward. As the first of the youtube videos points
> >>>> out, children, unlike other apes, have learned to expect adults to
> >>>> adjust what they do to fit the child's interests (this pedagogical
> >>>> orientation seems to be uniquely human, though I remember seeing a
> >>>> film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding'
> >>>> digging
> >>>> out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this
> >>>> expectation, and in the social context of interaction with an
> >>>> unfamiliar adult, it is not surprising that children should 'be on
> >>>> their best behaviour' or 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go
> >>>> along with a stranger's funny ways.
> >>>> It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained
> >>>> if the set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar
> >>>> surroundings (and with familiar gear).
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of
> >>>> Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children
> >>>> do what adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we
> >>>> all do many things without necessarily being absolutely clear about
> >>>> why we do them, other than that people might be offended if we
> >>>> didn't).
> >>>> In many cases adults will insist on overimitation - say 'please',
> >>>> say grace before a meal, brush your teeth before you go to bed etc.
> >>>> etc.. One of my personal horrors is 'communication training' for
> >>>> children with learning difficulties - involving insistence that the
> >>>> child presents a token before a reward is handed over, even though
> >>>> child and adult both know that the adult already knows exactly what
> >>>> the child wants).
> >>>>
> >>>> All the best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Rod
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________________
> >>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> >>>> Behalf Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
> >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment
> >>>> that
> >>>>> shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Steve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Found it:
> >>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mike
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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> >>>>>
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> >>>
> >>
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