RE: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

[Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>]

Mike,

What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the premise that the 'rational' thing to do (in order to obtain the reward - sweet or sticker - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or redundant (overimitation has different connotations from, for example, 'superimitation'). Part of the problem with this, I think, is that it doesn't sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for children, the 'reward' may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the simple getting of stuff.

And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed that doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of symptoms if the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets as they entered the consulting room - gift giving has powerful social implications!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-sugar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html

I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here while also managing a more than full time job - at the moment I am still working with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not to answer a long and detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog the converstion etc.) and my dugout sometimes feels more like a worryingly unstable log!

All the best,

Rod

From: mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: 06 February 2010 21:11
To: Rod Parker-Rees
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY adults do it.

Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply that the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it possible to interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of mutual imitation seen in earliest infancy.

Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
seeking it as follows:

http://books.google.com/books?id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than+others+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James+Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw&hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures%20have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C%20Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false

This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this chapter
particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make: that aesthetic
sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related, topic for another message.

mike
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk<mailto:R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk>> wrote:
Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick boxes as 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were just to get a reward. As the first of the youtube videos points out, children, unlike other apes, have learned to expect adults to adjust what they do to fit the child's interests (this pedagogical orientation seems to be uniquely human, though I remember seeing a film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding' digging out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this expectation, and in the social context of interaction with an unfamiliar adult, it is not surprising that children should 'be on their best behaviour' or 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go along with a stranger's funny ways. It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained if the set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar surroundings (and with familiar gear).

It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children do what adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we all do many things without necessarily being absolutely clear about why we do them, other than that people might be offended if we didn't). In many cases adults will insist on overimitation - say 'please', say grace before a meal, brush your teeth before you go to bed etc. etc.. One of my personal horrors is 'communication training' for children with learning difficulties - involving insistence that the child presents a token before a reward is handed over, even though child and adult both know that the adult already knows exactly what the child wants).

All the best,

Rod

________________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu> [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>] On Behalf Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>]
Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
mike

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<mailto:stevegabosch@me.com>> wrote:

> Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment that
> shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
>
>  Found it:  http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
>>
>> mike
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca