Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I agree with your analysis, Rod. The application of "over" to this form of
imitation obscures the sources of reward for the children in imitating
adults. I was trying to indicate that this phenomenon fits well the idea of
the special role of social others in earliest infancy evidenced as part of
mutual imitation.

I know what you mean about the problems of working time and a half while
engaging in these discussions. No one can read and respond to everything--
almost certainly no one wants to! But the presence of a diverse and changing
group of "chatters," while frustrating at times, is also a source of
dependably helpful, if often unexpected, insight and enrichment of what do
in our "paid for" lives.

Our in again out again discussion of the special qualities of human
sociality and its development being a case in point.

mike

On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:

>  Mike,
>
>
>
> What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the premise that
> the ‘rational’ thing to do (in order to obtain the reward - sweet or sticker
> - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or redundant
> (overimitation has different connotations from, for example,
> ‘superimitation’). Part of the problem with this, I think, is that it
> doesn’t sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for children, the ‘reward’
> may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the simple
> getting of stuff.
>
>
>
> And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed that
> doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of symptoms if
> the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets as they entered the
> consulting room – gift giving has powerful social implications!
>
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-sugar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
>
>
>
> I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here while
> also managing a more than full time job – at the moment I am still working
> with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not to answer a long and
> detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog the converstion etc.) and my
> dugout sometimes feels more like a worryingly unstable log!
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> Rod
>
>
>
> *From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
> *To:* Rod Parker-Rees
> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>
> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>
>
>
> Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY adults do
> it.
>
> Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply that
> the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it possible to
> interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of mutual imitation seen in
> earliest infancy.
>
> Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
> seeking it as follows:
>
>
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than+others+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James+Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw&hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures%20have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C%20Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
>
> This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of
> deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this chapter
> particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make: that aesthetic
> sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related, topic for another
> message.
>
> mike
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick boxes as
> 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were just to get a
> reward. As the first of the youtube videos points out, children, unlike
> other apes, have learned to expect adults to adjust what they do to fit the
> child's interests (this pedagogical orientation seems to be uniquely human,
> though I remember seeing a film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding' digging
> out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this expectation,
> and in the social context of interaction with an unfamiliar adult, it is not
> surprising that children should 'be on their best behaviour' or
> 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go along with a stranger's funny ways.
> It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained if the
> set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar surroundings (and with
> familiar gear).
>
> It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of
> Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children do what
> adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we all do many
> things without necessarily being absolutely clear about why we do them,
> other than that people might be offended if we didn't). In many cases adults
> will insist on overimitation - say 'please', say grace before a meal, brush
> your teeth before you go to bed etc. etc.. One of my personal horrors is
> 'communication training' for children with learning difficulties - involving
> insistence that the child presents a token before a reward is handed over,
> even though child and adult both know that the adult already knows exactly
> what the child wants).
>
> All the best,
>
> Rod
>
> ________________________________________
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf
> Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>
>
> Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
> mike
>
> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:
>
> > Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment that
> > shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
> >
> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >
> >  Found it:  http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
> >>
> >> mike
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
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