Mike,
What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the
premise that
the ‘rational’ thing to do (in order to obtain the reward - sweet
or sticker
- efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or
redundant
(overimitation has different connotations from, for example,
‘superimitation’). Part of the problem with this, I think, is that it
doesn’t sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for children, the
‘reward’
may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the
simple
getting of stuff.
And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed
that
doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of
symptoms if
the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets as they
entered the
consulting room – gift giving has powerful social implications!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-sugar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here
while
also managing a more than full time job – at the moment I am still
working
with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not to answer a
long and
detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog the converstion
etc.) and my
dugout sometimes feels more like a worryingly unstable log!
All the best,
Rod
*From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
*Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
*To:* Rod Parker-Rees
*Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
*Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY
adults do
it.
Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply
that
the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it possible to
interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of mutual
imitation seen in
earliest infancy.
Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
seeking it as follows:
http://books.google.com/books?id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than+others+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James+Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw&hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v
=onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures
%20have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C
%20Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of
deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this chapter
particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make: that
aesthetic
sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related, topic for another
message.
mike
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick
boxes as
'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were just to
get a
reward. As the first of the youtube videos points out, children,
unlike
other apes, have learned to expect adults to adjust what they do to
fit the
child's interests (this pedagogical orientation seems to be
uniquely human,
though I remember seeing a film of meerkats apparently
'scaffolding' digging
out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this
expectation,
and in the social context of interaction with an unfamiliar adult,
it is not
surprising that children should 'be on their best behaviour' or
'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go along with a stranger's
funny ways.
It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained
if the
set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar surroundings
(and with
familiar gear).
It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of
Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children
do what
adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we all do
many
things without necessarily being absolutely clear about why we do
them,
other than that people might be offended if we didn't). In many
cases adults
will insist on overimitation - say 'please', say grace before a
meal, brush
your teeth before you go to bed etc. etc.. One of my personal
horrors is
'communication training' for children with learning difficulties -
involving
insistence that the child presents a token before a reward is
handed over,
even though child and adult both know that the adult already knows
exactly
what the child wants).
All the best,
Rod
________________________________________
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
Behalf
Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
mike
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
wrote:
Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment
that
shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
- Steve
On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
Found it: http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
mike
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