Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Thanks Peg-- Not sure where in the flood of message this appeared before but
its certainly relevant now.

The issue of replication in various cultural circumstances is clear in order
to start teasing out the socio-cultural factors almost certainly in play.
But the question remains, who can do this? Some readers of xmca may be in a
position to do so.
mike

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> I sent these articles and abstracts to you earlier, Mike; and I am not sure
> if they have they entered this discussion yet.  Apologies if they are
> repetitive or off topic
> Comparing babies, toddlers and preschoolers -- seems pre-schoolers is more
> than just an opaque expression!
> Have the older children learned the "over-imitation" in certain social
> interactions in certain cultures or is this age effect more general?
>
> Emulation and "overemulation" in the social learning of causally opaque
> versus causally transparent tool use by 23- and 30-month-olds. Nicola
> McGuigan and Andrew Whiten  Journal of Experimental Child Psychology Volume
> 104, Issue 4, December 2009, Pages 367-381
> Abstract: We explored whether a rising trend to blindly "overcopy" a
> model's
> causally irrelevant actions between 3 and 5 years of age, found in previous
> studies, predicts a more circumspect disposition in much younger children.
> Children between 23 and 30 months of age observed a model use a tool to
> retrieve a reward from either a transparent or opaque puzzle box. Some of
> the tool actions were irrelevant to reward retrieval, whereas others were
> causally necessary. The causal relevance of the tool actions was highly
> visible in the transparent box condition, allowing the participants to
> potentially discriminate which actions were necessary. In contrast, the
> causal efficacy of the tool was hidden in the opaque box condition. When
> both the 23- and 30-month-olds were presented with either the transparent
> or
> opaque box, they were most commonly emulative rather than imitative,
> performing only the causally necessary actions. This strategy contrasts
> with
> the blanket imitation of both causally irrelevant and causally relevant
> actions witnessed at 3 and 5 years of age in our previous studies. The
> results challenge a current view of 1- and 2-year-olds as largely "blind
> imitators"; instead, they show that these young children have a variety of
> social learning processes available to them. More broadly the emerging
> patterns of results suggest, rather counterintuitively, that the human
> species becomes more imitative rather than less imitative with age, in some
> ways "mindlessly" so.
>
> Imitation of causally opaque versus causally transparent tool use by 3- and
> 5-year-old children. Cognitive Development, Volume 22, Issue 3,
> July-September 2007, Pages 353-364. Nicola McGuigan, Andrew Whiten, Emma
> Flynn, Victoria Horner
> Abstract: We investigated whether the tendency to imitate or emulate is
> influenced by the availability of causal information, and the amount of
> information available in a display. Three and 5-year-old children were
> shown
> by either a live or video model how to obtain a reward from either a clear
> or an opaque puzzle box. Some of the actions in the sequence were causally
> relevant to retrieving the reward, whereas others were irrelevant. The
> clear
> box made the causally irrelevant actions visible, whereas the opaque box
> prevented them from being seen. Results indicated that both 3- and
> 5-year-old children imitated the irrelevant actions regardless of the
> availability of causal information following a live demonstration. In
> contrast, the 3-year-olds employed an emulative approach, omitting
> irrelevant actions, when the information available was degraded in a video
> demonstration. However, the 5-year-olds were unaffected by the degraded
> information and employed an imitative approach. We suggest that imitation
> develops to be such an adaptive human strategy that it may often be
> employed
> at the expense of task efficiency.
>
> Emulation, imitation, overimitation and the scope of culture for child and
> chimpanzee. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, B (2009)
> Volume: 364. A Whiten, N Mcguigan, S Marshall-pescini, L M Hopper
> Selective imitation in child and chimpanzee: A window on the construal of
> others' actions. In S. Hurley & N. Chater (Eds.), Perspectives on
> imitation:
> A Whiten, V Horner, S Marshall-pescini From (2005)
>
> Peg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:06 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
>
> I think Sasha's idea is perfectly plausible.
> So who out there can run the experiment??
> "-)
> mike
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:
>
> > Alexander Surmava (Sasha) sent me some keen observations on the
> > plastic box experiment and predicts that if a child was left alone
> > with the clear plastic box and their candy prizes long without adult
> > observation, the child would go the road of the chimps and discard the
> > unnecessary moves.  This suggests an interesting extension of this
> > experiment which could offer additional insight into the social nature
> > of over-imitation that Rod and Mike are discussing.
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 7, 2010, at 7:23 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >
> >  I agree with your analysis, Rod. The application of "over" to this
> > form of
> >> imitation obscures the sources of reward for the children in
> >> imitating adults. I was trying to indicate that this phenomenon fits
> >> well the idea of the special role of social others in earliest
> >> infancy evidenced as part of mutual imitation.
> >>
> >> I know what you mean about the problems of working time and a half
> >> while engaging in these discussions. No one can read and respond to
> >> everything-- almost certainly no one wants to! But the presence of a
> >> diverse and changing group of "chatters," while frustrating at times,
> >> is also a source of dependably helpful, if often unexpected, insight
> >> and enrichment of what do in our "paid for" lives.
> >>
> >> Our in again out again discussion of the special qualities of human
> >> sociality and its development being a case in point.
> >>
> >> mike
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> >> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>  Mike,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What I meant was that these studies appear to be based on the
> >>> premise that the 'rational' thing to do (in order to obtain the
> >>> reward - sweet or sticker
> >>> - efficiently) is X so if the child does X+, the + is surplus or
> >>> redundant (overimitation has different connotations from, for
> >>> example, 'superimitation'). Part of the problem with this, I think,
> >>> is that it doesn't sufficiently acknowledge the fact that, for
> >>> children, the 'reward'
> >>> may be as much, or more, to do with the social interaction as the
> >>> simple getting of stuff.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And this reminds me of a delightful piece of research which showed
> >>> that doctors were more likely to diagnose an unusual combination of
> >>> symptoms if the patient presented them with a small bag of sweets as
> >>> they entered the consulting room - gift giving has powerful social
> >>> implications!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519661.200-a-spoonful-of-sug
> >>> ar-helps-the-doctor-feel-good.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I need to work out a way of keeping up with all the good stuff here
> >>> while also managing a more than full time job - at the moment I am
> >>> still working with habits developed elsewhere (e.g. it is rude not
> >>> to answer a long and detailed reply to a posting, it is rude to hog
> >>> the converstion etc.) and my dugout sometimes feels more like a
> >>> worryingly unstable log!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rod
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* mike cole [mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com]
> >>> *Sent:* 06 February 2010 21:11
> >>> *To:* Rod Parker-Rees
> >>> *Cc:* eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Rod-- you write: children do what adults do before they know WHY
> >>> adults do it.
> >>>
> >>> Precisely. I did not take the "over" part of overimitation to imply
> >>> that the kids were doing it just "for the reward." I think it
> >>> possible to interpret it, rather, as derivative of the kinds of
> >>> mutual imitation seen in earliest infancy.
> >>>
> >>> Deb Downing found the Premack and Premack chapter, clever lady, by
> >>> seeking it as follows:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=g_hMIz7LN18C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=
> >>> Why+animals+lack+pedagogy+and+some+cultures+have+more+of+it+than+oth
> >>> ers+/+David+Premack,+Ann+James+Premack&source=bl&ots=HvZEFPfY33&sig=
> >>> c7kCqQqX_mNOzEWvWyhBWxyynYw&hl=en&ei=RcdtS8bKJI7UsgPboemxDQ&sa=X&oi=
> >>> book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAQ#v
> >>> =onepage&q=Why%20animals%20lack%20pedagogy%20and%20some%20cultures%2
> >>> 0have%20more%20of%20it%20than%20others%20%2F%20David%20Premack%2C%20
> >>> Ann%20James%20Premack&f=false
> >>>
> >>> This chapter has a pretty detailed discussion of the uniqueness of
> >>> deliberate instruction (pedagogy) to humans. I was after this
> >>> chapter particularly because of a related claim the Premacks make:
> >>> that aesthetic sensibility is unique to humans. Another, related,
> >>> topic for another message.
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rod Parker-Rees <
> >>> R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Interesting that we describe what children do with these trick boxes
> >>> as 'overimitation' as if the sole purpose of imitation were just to
> >>> get a reward. As the first of the youtube videos points out,
> >>> children, unlike other apes, have learned to expect adults to adjust
> >>> what they do to fit the child's interests (this pedagogical
> >>> orientation seems to be uniquely human, though I remember seeing a
> >>> film of meerkats apparently 'scaffolding'
> >>> digging
> >>> out food, setting up young to finish off the job). Given this
> >>> expectation, and in the social context of interaction with an
> >>> unfamiliar adult, it is not surprising that children should 'be on
> >>> their best behaviour' or 'hypervigilant' in their efforts to go
> >>> along with a stranger's funny ways.
> >>> It would be interesting to see if similar results would be obtained
> >>> if the set up was conducted by a familiar adult in familiar
> >>> surroundings (and with familiar gear).
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that overimitation would be a necessary feature of
> >>> Vygotsky's model of internalisation of social activity - children do
> >>> what adults do before they know WHY adults do it (and indeed we all
> >>> do many things without necessarily being absolutely clear about why
> >>> we do them, other than that people might be offended if we didn't).
> >>> In many cases adults will insist on overimitation - say 'please',
> >>> say grace before a meal, brush your teeth before you go to bed etc.
> >>> etc.. One of my personal horrors is 'communication training' for
> >>> children with learning difficulties - involving insistence that the
> >>> child presents a token before a reward is handed over, even though
> >>> child and adult both know that the adult already knows exactly what
> >>> the child wants).
> >>>
> >>> All the best,
> >>>
> >>> Rod
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> >>> Behalf Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: 06 February 2010 18:47
> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] "overimitation" ref
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Good addition to the paper. Probably same experimenters.
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  Two more videos on overimitation, a black box/clear box experiment
> >>> that
> >>>> shows children are more likely to overimitate than chimps.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8
> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuagL7x5Wc&feature=related
> >>>>
> >>>> - Steve
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 6, 2010, at 7:46 AM, mike cole wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Found it:
> >>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2007/11/27/0704452104.DC1
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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