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RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?

Well, David, 

You are very correct. But perhaps not only about that Vygotsky "likes to use the word "semasiological" INSTEAD of "semantic"". See, this what I find in 1934’s version of “Thinking and speech” to words with “sema_” (сема_)... Search engine can be not 100% because possible OCR incorrections  at the actual source recognition, an so on… But, for a while, I find 42 entries for “sema_”… And only 2 entries to “Semasiological”( see “*” in the list bellow)… Actually: “Funktsiia semasiologicheskaia” (cap. 5 – item XIV , p. 145) and “semasiologia” (cap. 7, p. 263). I was wrong about the "Z" in the place of "S" only because in Portuguese in "Semasiological" the second "s" sounds like "z" - excuse me. You are correct. The other 40 entries are related to “semantics”… I could not see more intensively, but seems that he talked about “semanticheskii analiz” only once. “Это изменение смысла слова мы могли установить как основной факт при семантическом анализе речи.” (cap. 6 – p. 305.) “Eto izmenenie smisla slova mi mogli ustanovit’ kak osnownoi fakt pri semanticheskom análise rech”... Something maybe like: “This alteration of word’s SENSE, [is that] we can stablish as fundamental fact in SEMANTIC analysis of speech”… I don’t know, but seems to be something like this… Then… I could see that “semicheskii analiz” did not appear in “Thinking and speech”… Well, I capitulate. And I guess that I returned to the starting point: how can we do something like a “semanticheskii analiz”? :-) 


I - FUNKTSIIA SEMASIOLOGICHESKAIA

"Сущность подобного перенесения названия в том, что функция, выполняемая здесь словом, не есть ФУНКЦИЯ СЕМАСИОЛОГИЧЕСКАЯ, осмысливающая. Слово выполняет здесь функцию номинативную, указывающую. Оно указывает, называет вещь. Другими словами, слово является здесь не знаком некоторого смысла, с которым оно связано в акте мышления, а чувственно данной вещи, ассоциативно связанной с другой чувственно воспринимающей вещью. А поскольку название связано с обозначаемой им вещью путем ассоциации, то перенесение названия обычно происходит по разнообразным ассоциациям, реконструировать которые невозможно без точного знания исторической обстановки акта переноса названия." (cap. 5 - item XIV, p. 145) - Unfortunetly, I do not have the English edition. And chapter 5 is not at marxists.org too...

II - SEMASIOLOGIA

"Тот отдел языкознания, который занимается изучением смысловой стороны речи, т. е. СЕМАСИОЛОГИЯ, усвоив ассоциационную концепцию слова, рассматривает до сих пор значение слова как ассоциацию между звуковой формой слова и его предметным содержанием." (cap. 7, p. 263) -- There is a version of chapter 7 in marxists.org, but I don´t understand it very well... seems to be something different... I leave the English version with you...


Thank you very much.
Achilles.


LIST OF WORD WITH "SEMA_" AT "THINKING AND SPEECH" (1934 version):


01 - (cap. 1 - p 008)... семантической стон языка...
02 - (cap. 1 - p 008)... классической семантики и фонетик...
03 - (cap. 1 - p 010)... метод семантического анализа...
* 04 - (cap. 5 - p 145)... функция СЕМАСИОЛОГИЧЕСКАЯ, осмысливающая...
05 - (cap. 6 - p 178)... всю семантическую сторону... 
06 - (cap. 6 - p 179)... именна семантическая...
07 - (cap. 6 - p 180)... на семантику родной речи...
08 - (cap. 6 - p 210)... наконец семантический строй
09 - (cap. 6 - p 210)... произвольной семантикой стророна...
10 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... пониятий - семантическая
11 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... и семантической стороной...
12 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... и семантической стороны...
13 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... развивать семантику речи...
14 - (cap. 7 - p 237)... с семантической стопоны...
* 15 - (cap. 7 - p 263)... е. СЕМАСИОЛОГИЯ, усвоив ассоциационную концепцию слов...
16 - (cap. 7 - p 263)... значением, семантика не могла...
17 - (cap. 7 - p 269)... смысловая, семантическая сторона речи и...
18 - (cap. 7 - p 269)... в семантической и в фазической стороне речи...
19 - (cap. 7 - p 270)... семантической стопоны речи ребенок начинает с целого...
20 - (cap. 7 - p 270)... развитии семантической и фазической стороны речи...
21 - (cap. 7 - p 271)... движения семантической и фазической стороны слова...
22 - (cap. 7 - p 271)... несовпадение семантической и фазической стороны речи...
23 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... ударение, семантическая функця...
24 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... ее семантический строй...
25 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... в семантике, дахе в римике, метрике и мызике...
26 - (cap. 7 - p 273)... и семантической стороны речи...
27 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... и семантическая сторона речи не совпадают
28 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... как семантический синтаксис...
29 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... не семантику и фонологю не дано сразу...
30 - (cap. 7 - p 275)... отношение семантической и фазической стороны речи...
31 - (cap. 7 - p 275)... в семантической структуре слова...
32 - (cap. 7 - p 276)... семантический план речи...
33 - (cap. 7 - p 304)... отнощением семантической...
34 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... премущественно семантикой, но не фонетикой речи
35 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... своебразном семантическом строе внутренней речи...
36 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... осбенности семантик внутренней речи?...
37 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... при семантической анализе речи...
38 - (cap. 7 - p 307)... особенности семантики внутренней речи...
39 - (cap. 7 - p 308)... особенностей семантики внутренней речи...
40 - (cap. 7 - p 309)... особый семантический строй...
41 - (cap. 7 - p 310)... семантики внутренней речи
42 - (cap. 7 - p 310)... аггютинации семантических ениниц....


Thank you, David.
Best wishes.
Achilles.








> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:04:35 +0000
> 
> 
> But, as Bella already said, we can find that Russian contemporary researchers prefers understand "semicheskii analiz" as "semantic analysis". We find, for istance, Zavershneva (2007): "This term [semicheskii analiz] from L.S. Vygotsky, in contemporary times "peredaetsia" (originate? can be correspondent to?) "semanticheskii" or "psikhosemanticheskii analiz" (note 7 - for the article "Way to freedom" (Put' k svobode) = «Этот термин [семический анализ] Л.С. Выготского в настоящее время передается термином “семантический” или “психосемантический анализ” (примечание 7)» --- Е. ЗАВЕРШНЕВА «Путь к свободе» (К публикации материалов из семейного архива Л.С. Выготского) Опубликовано в журнале: «НЛО» 2007, №85. Now, I really would like to know how to do it... Do you think, David, that Sakharov's-like and Shif's-like investigations already answer the question about "semicheskii analiz" to understand sistemic and semantic (smislovoe) struture/building (stroenie) of consciousness???
> 
> :-)
> 
> Thank you.
> Achilles.
> 
>  
> 
> > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:37:36 +0000
> > 
> > 
> > Thank you, very much, David,
> > 
> > I understand, It's very interesting your approach... But you said that "Vygotsky likes to use the word "semasiological"" - then what was the Russian Vygotsky's term for "semasiological"? This was something that Vygotsky liked to use, or the English translators liked to use? I will see chapter 5 soon - the letters I have only in English, not in Russian yet, but I will see if there is something in Google about the letters in Russian too. I never read chapter 5 with this questions in mind before, in Portuguese translations I guess that "semasiological" is not so common until now... We have sometimes "semiotic" for "semicheskii" in the text "The problem of consciousness" as I said before, but "semicheskii" seem to work with the radical "sem_" very close to "sema" - the vocal must normally falls to construct the adjetive; of course this word "sema" have something to see with "sign", in my opinion... (Greek "σημεῖον" – semeion") - spite "sema" is currently associated with linguistic sign, not to all semiotic process, then I don't know, because Vygotsky at "The problem of consciousness" was actually talking about "words" too... not about all kind of signs, I wonder... But "semicheskii" was closer to "semic"... I don't find, right now, dictionaries and or Google entries to "semaziologuícheskii" (семазиологический) - nor something like this... But I have to see better. Then I will see my chapter 5 again, and maybe confront with 1934's Russian. To my opinion "semiotic" is broader than  "semantic" (if you consider Charles Morris' terms: semantics, pragmatics, syntax  - as tree kinds of semiotic relations: i.e. all that is semantic is semiotic, but not all that is semiotic is semantic)... I don't know about "semasiological"... Perhaps "semiotic" or "semasiological" could have something to see with the problem about distinction and/or similarity "semiotics x semiology"? I guess all this will be not our major problem here, of course... But as all you know better than I: "words , words, words" (...) "the rest is silence" :-)
> > 
> > Best.
> > 
> > Achilles.
> > 
> > (off topic: Andy, don´t worry, I'm work at the "Teaching about emotions" right now, too. It's walking...)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:11:37 -0800
> > > From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > 
> > > Achilles:
> > >  
> > > A couple of years ago I noticed that Vygosky likes to use the word "semasiological" instead of "semantic" (see, just as examples,  page 154 of Vol 1, Chapter Five of Thinking and Speech", and also Vygotsky's letter to Luria in 1931 about the work of Gelb and Goldstein, p. 40 of the Journal of Russian and Eastern European Psychology, 45 (2), among other places.) I wondered why.
> > >  
> > > I think I know the answer, and I think it might be relevant to your question. In Vygotsky's day there was something of a conflict between a school of semantics called "semasiology" and one called "onomasiology". 
> > >  
> > > Briefly stated, the semasiologists were interested in WORDS. They isolated them and then considered the many meanings they could have. The onomasiologists were interested in CONCEPTS. They isolated a concept and then considered the various realizations it could have (as an exchange, an utterance, a phrase, and finally a word). 
> > >  
> > > For this reason, the onomasiologists became extremely interested in the NAMING function, because that was really the end point of their analysis (they went from thinking to speech) while the semasiologists were more interested in the SIGNIFYING function, because naming was really just one part of a much larger process of abstraction that runs from speech to thinking. 
> > >  
> > > When we really look at EXAMPLES of a "semantic" analysis in Vygotsky we see that they are almost never onomasiological; they are always intent on how a single word-meaning unit develops over time. So Chapter Five is neither a semiotic nor a semic nor a semantic analysis; it's really a semasiological one.
> > >  
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >  
> > > --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:30 PM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thank you, very much, Bella,
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately I will could not stay in Portugal in June. Of course, it would be wonderful stay there and meet and listen to so interesting and important scholars, researchers. I will encourage my colleagues here to go to the Conference.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes.
> > > 
> > > Achilles.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:20:34 +0200
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > 
> > > > Achilles, I think that it that "semantic"
> > > > is a correct (good enough) translation because it means analysis of meaning
> > > > and this is semantoc analysis.
> > > > Will you come to Portugal conference in June?
> > > > Bella Kotik
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Why don't you try to ask the guys @ psyhistorik --
> > > > > http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/profile ?
> > > > > Perhaps somebody will be able to answer your question there ...
> > > > >
> > > > > AY
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >  Sent: Sun, February 7, 2010 6:41:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Mike.
> > > > > Achilles.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:34:01 -0800
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > CC: borlogic@yahoo.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Achilles. I do not know the answer to your question. Lets see what our
> > > > > > native
> > > > > > Russian speakers can tell us.
> > > > > > mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi, XMCA,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In some inner meetings of Vygotsky's group, around 1932-33-34, there
> > > > > was an
> > > > > > > interesting claim from him about methodological problem of the
> > > > > analysis:
> > > > > > > "Семический
> > > > > > > анализ есть единственный адекватный метод изучения системного и
> > > > > смыслового
> > > > > > > строения сознания" = something like: "[Semicheskii] analysis is the
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > adequate method for the study of the systemic and [smyslovoe]
> > > > >  structure [or
> > > > > > > construction (?) = stroenie]" of consciousness - Well, in my Portuguese
> > > > > > > version I have a great problem not exactly because "stroenie"
> > > > > translation as
> > > > > > > "structure" - spite the word is not "struktura" - but mainly with
> > > > > > > "semicheskii" that was translated as "semiotic" and Vygotsky's word was
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > "semioticheskii" - French version translate the same "semitcheskii" has
> > > > > > > "sémantique" - but this is not so comfortable too, because "smyslovoe"
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > Portuguese was transformed in "semantic" too. But there is "semantika"
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > "semanticheskii" in Russian too, at least in present time. I don't know
> > > > > > > about actual familiarity of Vygotsky with terms such as "semiotics",
> > > > > > > "semantics", and so on, at that time...  How can we better translate
> > > > > > > "semicheskii analiz" today? Or, even better: by what methodological
> > > > > means
> > > > > > > did somebody actually proceed that kind of so important analysis, at
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > times? To what methodology Vygotsky concretely refereed with the term
> > > > > > > "semicheskii analiz" - "the only adequate method for the study of the
> > > > > > > systemic and "semantic" [smyslovoe]  "construction" [stroenie] of
> > > > > > > consciousness"... The only title in Russian around this matter that in
> > > > > find
> > > > > > > in Google search was: Аснин, В. И. & Запорожец, А. В. (1935).
> > > > > Семический
> > > > > > > анализ языковых значений, усвоенных в школе. Сборник исследований
> > > > > > > харьковской группы; не был опубликован - something like Asnin, V.I &
> > > > > > > Zaporozhets, A.V. (1935) Semicheskii analysis of linguistic (?)
> > > > > meanings,
> > > > > > > adopted in school. Collection of investigations of Kharkov's group.
> > > > > ---> but
> > > > > > > this was not published... Can I suppose that not only Vygotsky believed
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > "semicheskii analysis" was important, but even some people apply it in
> > > > > > > empirical research?  Ow, sure... I can found many entries to "semic
> > > > > > > analysis" in contemporary semiotic studies, but seems to be no much in
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > "genetic" approach... then I am very limited in choice an adequate
> > > > > > > translation, and even more limited in understand the actual concept...
> > > > > > > "semiotic analysis"(?), "analyse sémantique"(?), "semic analysis"(?) -
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > was not any kind of "concept formation" study, was it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thank you for your help, one more time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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