Re: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hmmm. I kind of liked David's analysis.
You should post all this and ask for help on the site that Anton gave us,
Achilles.
mike

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Well, David,
>
> You are very correct. But perhaps not only about that Vygotsky "likes to
> use the word "semasiological" INSTEAD of "semantic"". See, this what I find
> in 1934’s version of “Thinking and speech” to words with “sema_” (сема_)...
> Search engine can be not 100% because possible OCR incorrections  at the
> actual source recognition, an so on… But, for a while, I find 42 entries for
> “sema_”… And only 2 entries to “Semasiological”( see “*” in the list
> bellow)… Actually: “Funktsiia semasiologicheskaia” (cap. 5 – item XIV , p.
> 145) and “semasiologia” (cap. 7, p. 263). I was wrong about the "Z" in the
> place of "S" only because in Portuguese in "Semasiological" the second "s"
> sounds like "z" - excuse me. You are correct. The other 40 entries are
> related to “semantics”… I could not see more intensively, but seems that he
> talked about “semanticheskii analiz” only once. “Это изменение смысла слова
> мы могли установить как основной факт при семантическом анализе речи.” (cap.
> 6 – p. 305.) “Eto izmenenie smisla slova mi mogli ustanovit’ kak osnownoi
> fakt pri semanticheskom análise rech”... Something maybe like: “This
> alteration of word’s SENSE, [is that] we can stablish as fundamental fact in
> SEMANTIC analysis of speech”… I don’t know, but seems to be something like
> this… Then… I could see that “semicheskii analiz” did not appear in
> “Thinking and speech”… Well, I capitulate. And I guess that I returned to
> the starting point: how can we do something like a “semanticheskii analiz”?
> :-)
>
>
> I - FUNKTSIIA SEMASIOLOGICHESKAIA
>
> "Сущность подобного перенесения названия в том, что функция, выполняемая
> здесь словом, не есть ФУНКЦИЯ СЕМАСИОЛОГИЧЕСКАЯ, осмысливающая. Слово
> выполняет здесь функцию номинативную, указывающую. Оно указывает, называет
> вещь. Другими словами, слово является здесь не знаком некоторого смысла, с
> которым оно связано в акте мышления, а чувственно данной вещи, ассоциативно
> связанной с другой чувственно воспринимающей вещью. А поскольку название
> связано с обозначаемой им вещью путем ассоциации, то перенесение названия
> обычно происходит по разнообразным ассоциациям, реконструировать которые
> невозможно без точного знания исторической обстановки акта переноса
> названия." (cap. 5 - item XIV, p. 145) - Unfortunetly, I do not have the
> English edition. And chapter 5 is not at marxists.org too...
>
> II - SEMASIOLOGIA
>
> "Тот отдел языкознания, который занимается изучением смысловой стороны
> речи, т. е. СЕМАСИОЛОГИЯ, усвоив ассоциационную концепцию слова,
> рассматривает до сих пор значение слова как ассоциацию между звуковой формой
> слова и его предметным содержанием." (cap. 7, p. 263) -- There is a version
> of chapter 7 in marxists.org, but I don´t understand it very well... seems
> to be something different... I leave the English version with you...
>
>
> Thank you very much.
> Achilles.
>
>
> LIST OF WORD WITH "SEMA_" AT "THINKING AND SPEECH" (1934 version):
>
>
> 01 - (cap. 1 - p 008)... семантической стон языка...
> 02 - (cap. 1 - p 008)... классической семантики и фонетик...
> 03 - (cap. 1 - p 010)... метод семантического анализа...
> * 04 - (cap. 5 - p 145)... функция СЕМАСИОЛОГИЧЕСКАЯ, осмысливающая...
> 05 - (cap. 6 - p 178)... всю семантическую сторону...
> 06 - (cap. 6 - p 179)... именна семантическая...
> 07 - (cap. 6 - p 180)... на семантику родной речи...
> 08 - (cap. 6 - p 210)... наконец семантический строй
> 09 - (cap. 6 - p 210)... произвольной семантикой стророна...
> 10 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... пониятий - семантическая
> 11 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... и семантической стороной...
> 12 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... и семантической стороны...
> 13 - (cap. 6 - p 236)... развивать семантику речи...
> 14 - (cap. 7 - p 237)... с семантической стопоны...
> * 15 - (cap. 7 - p 263)... е. СЕМАСИОЛОГИЯ, усвоив ассоциационную концепцию
> слов...
> 16 - (cap. 7 - p 263)... значением, семантика не могла...
> 17 - (cap. 7 - p 269)... смысловая, семантическая сторона речи и...
> 18 - (cap. 7 - p 269)... в семантической и в фазической стороне речи...
> 19 - (cap. 7 - p 270)... семантической стопоны речи ребенок начинает с
> целого...
> 20 - (cap. 7 - p 270)... развитии семантической и фазической стороны
> речи...
> 21 - (cap. 7 - p 271)... движения семантической и фазической стороны
> слова...
> 22 - (cap. 7 - p 271)... несовпадение семантической и фазической стороны
> речи...
> 23 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... ударение, семантическая функця...
> 24 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... ее семантический строй...
> 25 - (cap. 7 - p 272)... в семантике, дахе в римике, метрике и мызике...
> 26 - (cap. 7 - p 273)... и семантической стороны речи...
> 27 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... и семантическая сторона речи не совпадают
> 28 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... как семантический синтаксис...
> 29 - (cap. 7 - p 274)... не семантику и фонологю не дано сразу...
> 30 - (cap. 7 - p 275)... отношение семантической и фазической стороны
> речи...
> 31 - (cap. 7 - p 275)... в семантической структуре слова...
> 32 - (cap. 7 - p 276)... семантический план речи...
> 33 - (cap. 7 - p 304)... отнощением семантической...
> 34 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... премущественно семантикой, но не фонетикой речи
> 35 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... своебразном семантическом строе внутренней речи...
> 36 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... осбенности семантик внутренней речи?...
> 37 - (cap. 7 - p 305)... при семантической анализе речи...
> 38 - (cap. 7 - p 307)... особенности семантики внутренней речи...
> 39 - (cap. 7 - p 308)... особенностей семантики внутренней речи...
> 40 - (cap. 7 - p 309)... особый семантический строй...
> 41 - (cap. 7 - p 310)... семантики внутренней речи
> 42 - (cap. 7 - p 310)... аггютинации семантических ениниц....
>
>
> Thank you, David.
> Best wishes.
> Achilles.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:04:35 +0000
> >
> >
> > But, as Bella already said, we can find that Russian contemporary
> researchers prefers understand "semicheskii analiz" as "semantic analysis".
> We find, for istance, Zavershneva (2007): "This term [semicheskii analiz]
> from L.S. Vygotsky, in contemporary times "peredaetsia" (originate? can be
> correspondent to?) "semanticheskii" or "psikhosemanticheskii analiz" (note 7
> - for the article "Way to freedom" (Put' k svobode) = «Этот термин
> [семический анализ] Л.С. Выготского в настоящее время передается термином
> “семантический” или “психосемантический анализ” (примечание 7)» --- Е.
> ЗАВЕРШНЕВА «Путь к свободе» (К публикации материалов из семейного архива
> Л.С. Выготского) Опубликовано в журнале: «НЛО» 2007, №85. Now, I really
> would like to know how to do it... Do you think, David, that Sakharov's-like
> and Shif's-like investigations already answer the question about
> "semicheskii analiz" to understand sistemic and semantic (smislovoe)
> struture/building (stroenie) of consciousness???
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Thank you.
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 14:37:36 +0000
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, very much, David,
> > >
> > > I understand, It's very interesting your approach... But you said that
> "Vygotsky likes to use the word "semasiological"" - then what was the
> Russian Vygotsky's term for "semasiological"? This was something that
> Vygotsky liked to use, or the English translators liked to use? I will see
> chapter 5 soon - the letters I have only in English, not in Russian yet, but
> I will see if there is something in Google about the letters in Russian too.
> I never read chapter 5 with this questions in mind before, in Portuguese
> translations I guess that "semasiological" is not so common until now... We
> have sometimes "semiotic" for "semicheskii" in the text "The problem of
> consciousness" as I said before, but "semicheskii" seem to work with the
> radical "sem_" very close to "sema" - the vocal must normally falls to
> construct the adjetive; of course this word "sema" have something to see
> with "sign", in my opinion... (Greek "σημεῖον" – semeion") - spite "sema" is
> currently associated with linguistic sign, not to all semiotic process, then
> I don't know, because Vygotsky at "The problem of consciousness" was
> actually talking about "words" too... not about all kind of signs, I
> wonder... But "semicheskii" was closer to "semic"... I don't find, right
> now, dictionaries and or Google entries to "semaziologuícheskii"
> (семазиологический) - nor something like this... But I have to see better.
> Then I will see my chapter 5 again, and maybe confront with 1934's Russian.
> To my opinion "semiotic" is broader than  "semantic" (if you consider
> Charles Morris' terms: semantics, pragmatics, syntax  - as tree kinds of
> semiotic relations: i.e. all that is semantic is semiotic, but not all that
> is semiotic is semantic)... I don't know about "semasiological"... Perhaps
> "semiotic" or "semasiological" could have something to see with the problem
> about distinction and/or similarity "semiotics x semiology"? I guess all
> this will be not our major problem here, of course... But as all you know
> better than I: "words , words, words" (...) "the rest is silence" :-)
> > >
> > > Best.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > > (off topic: Andy, don´t worry, I'm work at the "Teaching about
> emotions" right now, too. It's walking...)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:11:37 -0800
> > > > From: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > Achilles:
> > > >
> > > > A couple of years ago I noticed that Vygosky likes to use the word
> "semasiological" instead of "semantic" (see, just as examples,  page 154 of
> Vol 1, Chapter Five of Thinking and Speech", and also Vygotsky's letter to
> Luria in 1931 about the work of Gelb and Goldstein, p. 40 of the Journal of
> Russian and Eastern European Psychology, 45 (2), among other places.) I
> wondered why.
> > > >
> > > > I think I know the answer, and I think it might be relevant to your
> question. In Vygotsky's day there was something of a conflict between a
> school of semantics called "semasiology" and one called "onomasiology".
> > > >
> > > > Briefly stated, the semasiologists were interested in WORDS. They
> isolated them and then considered the many meanings they could have. The
> onomasiologists were interested in CONCEPTS. They isolated a concept and
> then considered the various realizations it could have (as an exchange, an
> utterance, a phrase, and finally a word).
> > > >
> > > > For this reason, the onomasiologists became extremely interested in
> the NAMING function, because that was really the end point of their analysis
> (they went from thinking to speech) while the semasiologists were more
> interested in the SIGNIFYING function, because naming was really just one
> part of a much larger process of abstraction that runs from speech to
> thinking.
> > > >
> > > > When we really look at EXAMPLES of a "semantic" analysis in Vygotsky
> we see that they are almost never onomasiological; they are always intent on
> how a single word-meaning unit develops over time. So Chapter Five is
> neither a semiotic nor a semic nor a semantic analysis; it's really a
> semasiological one.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:30 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, very much, Bella,
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately I will could not stay in Portugal in June. Of course,
> it would be wonderful stay there and meet and listen to so interesting and
> important scholars, researchers. I will encourage my colleagues here to go
> to the Conference.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:20:34 +0200
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > > From: bella.kotik@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Achilles, I think that it that "semantic"
> > > > > is a correct (good enough) translation because it means analysis of
> meaning
> > > > > and this is semantoc analysis.
> > > > > Will you come to Portugal conference in June?
> > > > > Bella Kotik
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:34 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <
> the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Why don't you try to ask the guys @ psyhistorik --
> > > > > > http://community.livejournal.com/psyhistorik/profile ?
> > > > > > Perhaps somebody will be able to answer your question there ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AY
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >  Sent: Sun, February 7, 2010 6:41:33 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you, Mike.
> > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 21:34:01 -0800
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Semiotic analysis" or "Semic analysis"?
> > > > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > CC: borlogic@yahoo.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Achilles. I do not know the answer to your question. Lets see
> what our
> > > > > > > native
> > > > > > > Russian speakers can tell us.
> > > > > > > mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, XMCA,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In some inner meetings of Vygotsky's group, around
> 1932-33-34, there
> > > > > > was an
> > > > > > > > interesting claim from him about methodological problem of
> the
> > > > > > analysis:
> > > > > > > > "Семический
> > > > > > > > анализ есть единственный адекватный метод изучения системного
> и
> > > > > > смыслового
> > > > > > > > строения сознания" = something like: "[Semicheskii] analysis
> is the
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > > > adequate method for the study of the systemic and [smyslovoe]
> > > > > >  structure [or
> > > > > > > > construction (?) = stroenie]" of consciousness - Well, in my
> Portuguese
> > > > > > > > version I have a great problem not exactly because "stroenie"
> > > > > > translation as
> > > > > > > > "structure" - spite the word is not "struktura" - but mainly
> with
> > > > > > > > "semicheskii" that was translated as "semiotic" and
> Vygotsky's word was
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > "semioticheskii" - French version translate the same
> "semitcheskii" has
> > > > > > > > "sémantique" - but this is not so comfortable too, because
> "smyslovoe"
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > Portuguese was transformed in "semantic" too. But there is
> "semantika"
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > "semanticheskii" in Russian too, at least in present time. I
> don't know
> > > > > > > > about actual familiarity of Vygotsky with terms such as
> "semiotics",
> > > > > > > > "semantics", and so on, at that time...  How can we better
> translate
> > > > > > > > "semicheskii analiz" today? Or, even better: by what
> methodological
> > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > did somebody actually proceed that kind of so important
> analysis, at
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > times? To what methodology Vygotsky concretely refereed with
> the term
> > > > > > > > "semicheskii analiz" - "the only adequate method for the
> study of the
> > > > > > > > systemic and "semantic" [smyslovoe]  "construction"
> [stroenie] of
> > > > > > > > consciousness"... The only title in Russian around this
> matter that in
> > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > in Google search was: Аснин, В. И. & Запорожец, А. В. (1935).
> > > > > > Семический
> > > > > > > > анализ языковых значений, усвоенных в школе. Сборник
> исследований
> > > > > > > > харьковской группы; не был опубликован - something like
> Asnin, V.I &
> > > > > > > > Zaporozhets, A.V. (1935) Semicheskii analysis of linguistic
> (?)
> > > > > > meanings,
> > > > > > > > adopted in school. Collection of investigations of Kharkov's
> group.
> > > > > > ---> but
> > > > > > > > this was not published... Can I suppose that not only
> Vygotsky believed
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > "semicheskii analysis" was important, but even some people
> apply it in
> > > > > > > > empirical research?  Ow, sure... I can found many entries to
> "semic
> > > > > > > > analysis" in contemporary semiotic studies, but seems to be
> no much in
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > "genetic" approach... then I am very limited in choice an
> adequate
> > > > > > > > translation, and even more limited in understand the actual
> concept...
> > > > > > > > "semiotic analysis"(?), "analyse sémantique"(?), "semic
> analysis"(?) -
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > was not any kind of "concept formation" study, was it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your help, one more time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Achilles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > > No Messenger você pode tranformar sua imagem de exibição num
> vídeo.
> > > > > > Veja
> > > > > > > > aqui!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/tip.aspx/view/97?product=2&ocid=WindowsLive:Dicas-Imagem Dinamica:Hotmail:Tagline:1x1:Mexa-se
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Quer 25GB de armazenamento gratuito na Internet? Conheça agora o
> SkyDrive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> http://www.eutenhomaisnowindowslive.com.br/?utm_source=MSN_Hotmail&utm_medium=Tagline&utm_campaign=InfuseSocial
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
>  __________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and
> bookmark your
> > > > > > favourite sites. Download it now
> > > > > > http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.
> > > > > >  _______________________________________________
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Quer deixar seus vídeos mais divertidos? Com o Movie Maker isso fica
> fácil.
> > > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/tip.aspx/view/87?product=4&ocid=WindowsLive:Dicas - Movie Maker:Hotmail:Tagline:1x1:Titulo Legendas Creditos
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > No Messenger você pode tranformar sua imagem de exibição num vídeo.
> Veja aqui!
> > >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/tip.aspx/view/97?product=2&ocid=WindowsLive:Dicas - Imagem Dinamica:Hotmail:Tagline:1x1:Mexa-se
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > No Messenger você pode tranformar sua imagem de exibição num vídeo. Veja
> aqui!
> >
> http://www.windowslive.com.br/public/tip.aspx/view/97?product=2&ocid=WindowsLive:Dicas - Imagem Dinamica:Hotmail:Tagline:1x1:Mexa-se
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Quer compartilhar fotos com seus amigos? Conheça agora o Windows Live
> Fotos.
>
> http://www.eutenhomaisnowindowslive.com.br/?utm_source=MSN_Hotmail&utm_medium=Tagline&utm_campaign=InfuseSocial
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>

_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca