Re: [xmca] Readung Piaget again...

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Martin, Carol

I was curious if there would be further conversation in response to the
Furth and Youniss article on a Piagetian model of development
within stages.

I had a question while reading page 131 on the development of moral
consciousness *in the wild*. The wild in this case was adolescents working
in a homeless shelter as a component of their FORMAL religion class on
Christian social justice.

Youniss believed his  assessment of this particular CASE of moral
development was capturing and validating Piaget's stage theory of moral
development WITHIN social formations of moral thinking. Youniss, following
the students for an entire year was able to *observe* the students raising
questions which are central KEY components of developing a mature and
responsible morality. Youniss *observed* that students INTERactive
discussions were not linear expressions of either conservative or liberal
moral perspectives. Youniss found no overall bias towards either liberal or
conservative stances. but rather the students were observed to be engaged
towards reconciling these differing positions.
The example given, of  black teenage mothers who OUGHT to either go to
school in order to BECOME self-sufficient or go to work to earn enough
money to self sufficiently take care of their children and not depend on
public support.

Youniss seems to be framing his *general* stage theory within particular
Christian notions of *development*.  Yes, he is exploring interaction and
differing perspectives [*oughts*] but within a particular Christian model
of *self-sufficiency* which presupposes that development has a trajectory
towards *self* differentiation as a *developing* ability or capacity.

My question is if this stage model is actually a particular *genre* or
*tradition* which presupposes our canonical notions of psychology as
self-development. Yes, within a social mileau of dialogue with others BUT
within a particular *genre* with biased prejudices and assumptions  of a
particular trajectory towards self development. In other words a particular
STYLE or TYPE of psychological discourse within the genre of *psy*
discourses.
I am not questioning the  moral values expressed or that these values
develop within social interaction. However, the historical aspect of
development WITHIN particular styles or genres.
 [in particular the *psy* genre of selves as developing towards self
sufficiency is not a universal story or narrative or genre.]

There are multiple, plural forms of discourse now developing which are
*deeply* dialogical all the way down.  To be human within these developing
*deeply* dialogical genres is to understand human nature as always
addressing the other.  Face to face conversation within communicative
structures is the paradigm model. However dialogical thinking, dialogical
writing as texts, prelinguistic and extralinguistic ways of being
addrressed by the other [alterity]  develop within this alternative genre
of discourse. Psychology as a discourse also becomes TRANSlated into a
different genre.

I am not sure if these reflections need to be TRANSlated into cultural
historical traditions of discourse. However, the question of what TYPE or
genre of development [and the biases implicit within *general* stage
models] I believe develop further clarity within historical genres of
development.

Larry




On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>wrote:

> Oh excuse me, I only saw the attachment after I sent the message.  Thanks
> Martin.  Will read this.
> Carol
>
> On 14 February 2013 20:40, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Martin
> >
> > Have you got access to that on our behalf--I say this because Furth
> is/was
> > a good exponent of classical Piaget.  (Late Piaget is different and
> > exceptionally difficult.)
> >
> > Look forward to it.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> > On 14 February 2013 20:20, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> There's also this:
> >>
> >> Furth, H. G., & Youniss, J. (2000). Reflections on Piaget's sociological
> >> studies. New Ideas in Psychology, 18(2-3), 121-133.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:14 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Mike,
> >> >
> >> > Piaget wrote a book called "Six sociological studies" which was only
> >> > available in French for many years.  I am going to look for
> >> information, as
> >> > my copy was stolen.  For him, "sociological' was roughly the same as
> >> > "social".
> >> >
> >> > Will get back to you.
> >> >
> >> > Carol
> >> >
> >> > On 14 February 2013 19:30, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I agree with Armando. Among other things, that document about event
> >> >> planning provides an interesting
> >> >> start on analyzing certain generalizable categories relevant to the
> >> >> division of labor and its dynamics.
> >> >>
> >> >> People are responding to my original question about "what is an
> event"
> >> in
> >> >> terms of different discourses
> >> >> focused on different levels of scale, in the chat sense.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sewell and Sahlins are concerned with events at the level of
> memorable
> >> and
> >> >> memorialized history
> >> >> events in discussion issues of agency and structure at the cultural
> >> >> historical level.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cultural-mediational psychologists and other ontogeny-oriented folks
> >> look
> >> >> at socially defined events
> >> >> of long standing such as birthdays and innaugurations wars, etc. This
> >> >> branches into the branches that Greg has pointed to in sociology,
> >> symbolic
> >> >> interactionisn, cultural studies. And it branched "down" into
> >> developmental
> >> >> psychology using notions such as event schemas/scripts..... secondary
> >> >> artifacts in Wartofskian terms.
> >> >>
> >> >> I sure have a pile of reading to do! Serves me right wondering what
> >> events
> >> >> have to do with communication.  :-)
> >> >> mike
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Justo, Armando <ArmandoJ@iadb.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi Carol,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is a very interesting question and I personally think that CHAT
> >> is
> >> >>> great for the analysis. These behaviors represent historical
> accepted
> >> >> forms
> >> >>> of activity for these positions that establish the "norms"
> applicable
> >> to
> >> >>> its incumbents. The credentialization movement is grounded in these
> >> type
> >> >> of
> >> >>> approaches.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> One possibility could be the analysis of use value and exchange
> value
> >> to
> >> >>> see how individuals use this set of behaviors to develop and to
> foster
> >> >>> their employability, and how organizations use the same behaviors to
> >> >> define
> >> >>> the rules for the activity. Sawchuk (2003) does a very interesting
> >> >> analysis
> >> >>> of this type for the functions of a university professor.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another performative lens would help incumbents to see these
> examples
> >> as
> >> >>> developmental possibilities "to be both who they are and who they
> are
> >> >>> becoming" (Holzman, 2009).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I hope this helps!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Best regards,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Armando
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>> From: Carol Macdonald [mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com]
> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 04:55 AM
> >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Events: Assistance requested
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Armando,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This is obviously a correct and comprehensive account. I do,
> however,
> >> >>> wonder how Mike is going to conceptualise that in CHAT!
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Carol
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 13 February 2013 21:07, Justo, Armando <ArmandoJ@iadb.org>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Dear Mike,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Years ago I conducted the profiling of technical competencies for
> one
> >> >>>> organization that has the position of "event planners". Their job
> >> >>>> encompassed four key areas: (i) knowledge of norms and regulations,
> >> >> (ii)
> >> >>>> events management , (iii) contract services management, and (i)
> >> budget
> >> >>>> management.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Below are the responsibilities of this position.  I hope it helps,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Best regards,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Armando Justo
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> ________
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Event Planning and Production includes staff who are responsible
> for
> >> >> the
> >> >>>> organization, coordination and execution of various events. Their
> >> >>>> responsibilities encompass the coordination and supervision of all
> >> >>>> protocol, ceremonial, and logistic aspects of these events applying
> >> >>>> appropriate norms and regulations.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> (i) Norms and Regulations
> >> >>>> . Defines logistical and physical event requirements, making
> >> >>>> recommendations based on client needs, cost benefits and protocol
> >> >>> standards.
> >> >>>> . Defines event strategies and establishes order of precedence
> based
> >> on
> >> >>>> analysis of agenda, list of attendees and cultural sensitivities.
> >> >>>> . Guides staff on protocol matters, both written and procedural,
> and
> >> >>> guest
> >> >>>> criteria.
> >> >>>> . Conducts quality control, evaluating the performance and quality
> of
> >> >>>> services provided by vendors and facilities.
> >> >>>> . Drafts recommendations for implementation of new protocol norms
> and
> >> >>>> procedures, based on identification of best market practices.
> >> >>>> . Provides guidance on application of proper protocol procedures
> for
> >> >>>> official events.
> >> >>>> . Anticipates potential complex and/or high visibility protocol
> >> issues,
> >> >>>> using sound judgment to identify and implement corrective
> solutions.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> (ii) Events Management
> >> >>>> . Advises involved players on logistical and protocol concerns and
> >> >> needs,
> >> >>>> providing strategic information regarding participant requirements
> >> >> and/or
> >> >>>> agenda issues.
> >> >>>> . Initiates and coordinates corrective measures in response to
> issues
> >> >>>> identified regarding the planning and execution of events.
> >> >>>> . Conducts quality assurance for processing and approval of
> required
> >> >>>> documentation, ensuring that requests for all necessary equipment
> and
> >> >>>> logistical requirements are complete and accurate.
> >> >>>> . Defines critical success factors to be considered for execution
> and
> >> >>>> evaluation of event management.
> >> >>>> . Defines criteria for identification of new facilities and
> >> resources,
> >> >>>> guiding staff in assessing factors to be considered, ensuring
> >> >> compliance
> >> >>>> with established procedures and maximization of financial
> resources.
> >> >>>> . Guides staff, providing information and answering inquiries on
> best
> >> >>>> utilization of available resources and/or need for additional
> >> >> resources.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> (iii) Contract Services Management
> >> >>>> . Monitors work performed by consultants and contractors, ensuring
> >> >>>> satisfactory delivery of services in compliance with contract
> >> >>>> specifications and schedules, identifying any corrective actions
> >> >>> necessary.
> >> >>>> . Develop contractual agreements that maximize protection and value
> >> for
> >> >>>> the organization, and meet the business requirements.
> >> >>>> . Negotiates and/or renegotiates contract terms and conditions,
> >> >> ensuring
> >> >>>> best cost value while maintaining quality of service.
> >> >>>> . Educates external providers on conference or audio-visual norms
> and
> >> >>>> guidelines, monitoring their work to ensure successful event
> >> >> organization
> >> >>>> and/or services consistent with internal standards and procedures.
> >> >>>> . Develops work programs and schedules according to upcoming event
> >> >>>> requirements, and analysis of specific needs, optimizing the use of
> >> >>>> financial and human resources.
> >> >>>> . Establishes contract requirements, applying knowledge of market
> >> >>>> conditions in the selection and hiring of consultants and service
> >> >>> providers.
> >> >>>> . In conjunction with the legal department, identifies legal
> >> >> implications
> >> >>>> of user or vendor requests, to reduce potential liability to the
> >> >>>> organization.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> (iv) Budget Administration
> >> >>>> . Analyzes and determines needed budget for events maximizing cost
> >> >>> savings
> >> >>>> and efficiency.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >> >>> On
> >> >>>> Behalf Of "Engeström, Yrjö H M"
> >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:34 PM
> >> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Events: Assistance requested
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> MIke, the historian/historical sociologist William H. Sewell, Jr.
> has
> >> >>>> built much of his theory of history on the concept of event. See
> for
> >> >>>> example:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -Sewell, W. H., Jr. (1996). Historical events as transformations of
> >> >>>> structures: Inventing revolution at the Bastille. Theory and
> Soecity,
> >> >>>> 25(6), 841-881.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> -Sewell, W. H., Jr. (1996). Three temporalities: Toward and
> eventful
> >> >>>> sociology. In T. J. McDonald (Ed.), The historic turn in the human
> >> >>>> sciences. University of Michigan Press.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Cheers,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Yrjö
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 7:26 PM, mike cole wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> This is all very helpful. I recommend that stanford encyclopedia
> >> >> entry
> >> >>>>> for a way to think about the span of levels and range of phenomena
> >> to
> >> >>>>> which we apply the term, event.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Note that in Pepper's "world hypotheses" view, "the event" is the
> >> >> unit
> >> >>>>> of analysis of contextualism.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> hmmmm
> >> >>>>> mike
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Helena Worthen <
> >> >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> >> >>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Mike-
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> One form of "event planning," which I assume includes everything
> >> >> from
> >> >>>>>> kid's birthday parties to a ride at Disneyland to political
> >> >>>>>> conventions, is theater production. From the job description
> point
> >> >> of
> >> >>>>>> view, the person listed as "producer" for a play is responsible
> for
> >> >>>>>> everything from raising the money, writing the budget, choosing
> the
> >> >>>>>> play and publicizing it, hiring the director and other technical
> >> >>>>>> staff and shaping how it is interpreted by the media and finally
> >> >>>>>> deciding when it closes and paying off (or apologizing) to the
> >> >>>>>> investors. As Jim Mackenzie, who was Producer at ACT in San
> >> >> Francisco
> >> >>>>>> once said, "Sometimes all you have to do is say 'Let's do it' and
> >> >>>> sometimes you're sewing on the zippers."
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> When I googled "theater production", however, I saw that theater
> >> >>>>>> departments who teach production focus on what goes on backstage
> --
> >> >>>>>> costumes, wigs, makeup, set design, lighting. That's much
> narrower
> >> >>>>>> than what a producer does. No useful book showed up.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Nonetheless, theater might be a good way to talk about event
> >> >> planning
> >> >>>>>> because of a key feature of  both: they are both bounded by the
> >> >>>>>> audience's or the participant's, encounter with them. They
> require
> >> >>>>>> taking the audience's perspective from the first awareness
> >> >>>>>> (pre-publicity) all the way through to the memory of the event.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> I found this perspective useful when producing the annual
> >> >> conferences
> >> >>>>>> for labor educators, which were very successful and drew
> increasing
> >> >>>>>> numbers of participants over the four years I was doing it.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Helena Worthen
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On 2/12/13 3:57 PM, "mike cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Ah! Well, I started to send this note to all of you, then
> decided
> >> >> to
> >> >>>>>>> send to daughter, but ended up sending to all of you after all,
> so
> >> >>>>>>> here is the problem. Delete if this is an intrusion on your
> time.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I am teaching a class where students are interest in an activity
> >> >>>>>>> called "event planning" for which people are sometime paid
> enough
> >> >> to
> >> >>>>>>> make a living. The difficulty is that the students do not appear
> >> to
> >> >>>>>>> have been taught anything they can remember about events and
> this
> >> >> is
> >> >>>>>>> a senior class. So I am doing some digging with them, and now
> with
> >> >>>>>>> you.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> The dictionary is of limited use:
> >> >>>>>>> * *
> >> >>>>>>> *a. * Something that takes place; an occurrence.
> >> >>>>>>> *b. * A significant occurrence or happening. See Synonyms at
> >> >>>>>>> occurrence<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occurrence>
> >> >>>>>>> .
> >> >>>>>>> *c. * A social gathering or activity.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> A philosophical dictionary lays out the problem territory in
> >> >> greater
> >> >>>>>>> detail: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/events/#EveVsObj
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> For events of type c, which the students are most concerned with
> >> of
> >> >>>>>>> course, my thought was to turn to the work of Turner,
> Goffman.....
> >> >>>>>>> but I cannot use an entire book.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I would appreciate suggestions for sources that would help me
> and
> >> >> my
> >> >>>>>>> students to think about events, especially as they relate to a
> >> >>>>>>> process called communication.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> mike
> >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> >> >>>>>>> _____
> >> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >> >>>>> _____
> >> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> __________________________________________
> >> >>>> _____
> >> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>>> __________________________________________
> >> >>>> _____
> >> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> >> >>> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> >> >>> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> >> >>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> >> >>> __________________________________________
> >> >>> _____
> >> >>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>> __________________________________________
> >> >>> _____
> >> >>> xmca mailing list
> >> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>>
> >> >> __________________________________________
> >> >> _____
> >> >> xmca mailing list
> >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> >> > Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> >> > Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> >> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> >> > __________________________________________
> >> > _____
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> > Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
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