Re: [xmca] Reading Piaget again...

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

All -- Here is the link to the Newletter discussion Artin is referring to:

http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/newsletters.html

On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Piaget and Vygotsky comparisons are of interest to many us for many
> reasons.  Trying to understand the similarities and differences between
> their stances regarding the role of culture in development is one
> motivation for this.  The LCHC Newletter made provisions for this issue
> also.  For example, a group of us from Chicago addressed how the two men
> conceptualized the role of culture in play, language, affect, and
> creativity in a 1988 collection that was published in the Newsletter.  It
> is this background that led me to send my post here.  ag
>
>
> On Thu, February 14, 2013 10:50 am, mike cole wrote:
> > Very interesting that this issue should come before the group, Artin. And
> > great to hear from Jonathan
> > and get a 1962 reference for the Piaget position, at that time, that
> > stages
> > were universal but the rate of attaining them culturally variable
> > depending
> > upon the "mental food value" of the culture.
> >
> > This period of his thinking, as I understand it, came from a unesco
> > conference and a book by tanner (a student of biological growth) and
> > Inhelder where he was interacting with anthropologists such as Margaret
> > Mead.
> >
> > This is the position, when combined with the presumed intellectual
> > consequences of schooling led to Bruner's conclusion that some cultures
> > promote cognitive development faster and FURTHER than others.
> >
> > An extensive LCHC discussion of these issues circa 1983 can be found
> here:
> > Note the list of contributing
> > authors.
> >
> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Pubs/Culture-CognitiveDev.pdf
> >
> > There has been a lot of subsequent work (Smith, Duveen,
> > Perret-Clermont......) on the social/cultural elements elabortable from
> > Piagetian ideas.
> >
> > The LCHC position focused on decalage and social mechanisms organizing
> > what
> > now it is discussed
> > as trajectories through sociocultural linked and sociocultural organized,
> > systems of activities/cultural practices.
> >
> > Adding biological history back into the discussion of ontogeny seems to
> me
> > to be a priority for the developmental of a CHAT-informed theory of
> > ontogeny.
> >
> > But that is a discussion for another day. Getting straignt the role of
> > culture in Piaget and Vygotsky's views seems a very important task.
> >
> > methinks.
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:22 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank you, Jon. I didn't mention Piaget's references to parent-child
> >> interaction in "the Moral Judgment" since the entire book is about the
> >> role of adult-child relationship and its relevance to moral development.
> >> ag
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, February 13, 2013 6:49 pm, Jonathan Tudge wrote:
> >> > Artin and Huw,
> >> >
> >> > I have students read the following as part of my Piaget offerings in a
> >> > theories class:
> >> >  Piaget, J. (1973). *The child and reality: Problems of genetic
> >> > psychology*.
> >> > New York: Grossman. Chapter 1: “Time and the intellectual development
> >> of
> >> > the child” (original work published in 1962).
> >> >
> >> > It's quite clear in this chapter that Piaget was more than willing to
> >> > acknowledge the influence of both social class and culture, not in
> >> > changing
> >> > the order through which children would pass through stages of
> >> development
> >> > but in speeding up or slowing down the age at which they'd be likely
> >> to
> >> > show evidence of being in one or other stage.
> >> >
> >> > He wrote "stages are precisely characterized by their set order of
> >> > succession. They are not stages which can be given a constant
> >> > chronological
> >> > date. On the contrary, the ages can vary from one society to
> >> another..."
> >> > (p. 10).  (As this chapter was initially presented as a lecture he
> >> > somewhere or other, tongue-in-cheek no doubt, mentions that the
> >> children
> >> > of
> >> > his listeners undoubtedly go through the stages faster.)  Towards the
> >> end
> >> > of the chapter he wrote as follows:
> >> > "Moreover, we will find collective accelerations in certain social
> >> classes
> >> > and in certain milieux" (pp. 25-26), and went on to discuss
> >> differences
> >> in
> >> > children's responses in Geneva, Montreal,  Martinique (a delay of
> >> > approximately four years), Tehran (similar to Geneva), and rural Iran
> >> (a
> >> > delay of approximately 2.5 years).
> >> >
> >> > We can, of course, argue about the manner in which non-schooled
> >> children
> >> > were tested (as Mike and others have done very effectively), but it's
> >> > really hard to say that Piaget held that culture or class were
> >> irrelevant
> >> > to children's cognitive development.
> >> >
> >> > In the book that Artin mentioned you can also find lots of evidence of
> >> the
> >> > ways in which parents and children influence children's social and
> >> moral
> >> > development--yet still we're confronted with the image of Piaget's
> >> child
> >> > being the little scientist working alone on the mysteries of the
> >> world.
> >> >
> >> > All the best,
> >> >
> >> > Jon
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >
> >> > Jonathan Tudge
> >> > Professor
> >> > Office: 155 Stone
> >> > ***Important*** Please note that I have a new office phone line***
> >> >
> >> > Mailing address:
> >> > 248 Stone Building
> >> > Department of Human Development and Family Studies
> >> > PO Box 26170
> >> > The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >> > Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
> >> > USA
> >> >
> >> > phone (336) 223-6181. [However, given the amount I travel, it's best
> >> to
> >> > communicate with me by email.]
> >> > fax   (336) 334-5076
> >> >
> >> > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Huw Lloyd
> >> > <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 13 February 2013 21:19, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > In re-reading Piaget for a class I teach, I saw the following
> >> >> sentences
> >> >> in
> >> >> > "The Moral Judgement of the Child" that I had underlined many years
> >> >> ago,
> >> >> > noticed them again, and felt that he may not have been given
> >> >> sufficient
> >> >> > credit for his observations about the role of culture and class in
> >> his
> >> >> > discussions.  On p. 209-10 referring to the findings he has just
> >> >> reported,
> >> >> > he says "To begin with, they relate only to the children belonging
> >> to
> >> >> a
> >> >> > certain ethnical (sic) group and a certain social stratum (the
> >> poorer
> >> >> > parts of Geneva and a few children from an elementary school at
> >> >> > Neuchatel.)  I wish he had theorized about the role of culture and
> >> >> class,
> >> >> > going beyond these observations but that is another story...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> My reading recollection is that he is forever hedging his bets and
> >> >> encumbered by an audience expecting a "rational" account of genetic
> >> >> phenomena.  On one occasion I was hunting about for some Piagetian
> >> ideas
> >> >> that, I was confident, were laid out with clarity only to discover
> >> that
> >> >> is
> >> >> was Vygotsky writing about Piaget.
> >> >>
> >> >> No doubt there's much more to it -- the influence of idioms such as
> >> >> French
> >> >> sociologists and psychologists, translations etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> Huw
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> >> >> > Professor,
> >> >> > Educational Psychology
> >> >> > College of Education M/C 147
> >> >> > 1040 W. Harrison St.
> >> >> > Chicago, IL 60607
> >> >> > http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> >> >> > (312) 996-5259
> >> >> >
> >> >> > __________________________________________
> >> >> > _____
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> >> >> >
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> >> >>
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> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> >> Professor,
> >> Educational Psychology
> >> College of Education M/C 147
> >> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> >> Chicago, IL 60607
> >> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> >> (312) 996-5259
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
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> >>
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> >
> >
>
>
> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> Professor,
> Educational Psychology
> College of Education M/C 147
> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> Chicago, IL 60607
> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> (312) 996-5259
>
>
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