Re: [xmca] Reading Piaget again...

["Goncu, Artin" <goncu@uic.edu>]

Piaget and Vygotsky comparisons are of interest to many us for many
reasons.  Trying to understand the similarities and differences between
their stances regarding the role of culture in development is one
motivation for this.  The LCHC Newletter made provisions for this issue
also.  For example, a group of us from Chicago addressed how the two men
conceptualized the role of culture in play, language, affect, and
creativity in a 1988 collection that was published in the Newsletter.  It
is this background that led me to send my post here.  ag


On Thu, February 14, 2013 10:50 am, mike cole wrote:
> Very interesting that this issue should come before the group, Artin. And
> great to hear from Jonathan
> and get a 1962 reference for the Piaget position, at that time, that
> stages
> were universal but the rate of attaining them culturally variable
> depending
> upon the "mental food value" of the culture.
>
> This period of his thinking, as I understand it, came from a unesco
> conference and a book by tanner (a student of biological growth) and
> Inhelder where he was interacting with anthropologists such as Margaret
> Mead.
>
> This is the position, when combined with the presumed intellectual
> consequences of schooling led to Bruner's conclusion that some cultures
> promote cognitive development faster and FURTHER than others.
>
> An extensive LCHC discussion of these issues circa 1983 can be found here:
> Note the list of contributing
> authors.
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Pubs/Culture-CognitiveDev.pdf
>
> There has been a lot of subsequent work (Smith, Duveen,
> Perret-Clermont......) on the social/cultural elements elabortable from
> Piagetian ideas.
>
> The LCHC position focused on decalage and social mechanisms organizing
> what
> now it is discussed
> as trajectories through sociocultural linked and sociocultural organized,
> systems of activities/cultural practices.
>
> Adding biological history back into the discussion of ontogeny seems to me
> to be a priority for the developmental of a CHAT-informed theory of
> ontogeny.
>
> But that is a discussion for another day. Getting straignt the role of
> culture in Piaget and Vygotsky's views seems a very important task.
>
> methinks.
> mike
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 8:22 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thank you, Jon. I didn't mention Piaget's references to parent-child
>> interaction in "the Moral Judgment" since the entire book is about the
>> role of adult-child relationship and its relevance to moral development.
>> ag
>>
>>
>> On Wed, February 13, 2013 6:49 pm, Jonathan Tudge wrote:
>> > Artin and Huw,
>> >
>> > I have students read the following as part of my Piaget offerings in a
>> > theories class:
>> >  Piaget, J. (1973). *The child and reality: Problems of genetic
>> > psychology*.
>> > New York: Grossman. Chapter 1: ?Time and the intellectual development
>> of
>> > the child? (original work published in 1962).
>> >
>> > It's quite clear in this chapter that Piaget was more than willing to
>> > acknowledge the influence of both social class and culture, not in
>> > changing
>> > the order through which children would pass through stages of
>> development
>> > but in speeding up or slowing down the age at which they'd be likely
>> to
>> > show evidence of being in one or other stage.
>> >
>> > He wrote "stages are precisely characterized by their set order of
>> > succession. They are not stages which can be given a constant
>> > chronological
>> > date. On the contrary, the ages can vary from one society to
>> another..."
>> > (p. 10).  (As this chapter was initially presented as a lecture he
>> > somewhere or other, tongue-in-cheek no doubt, mentions that the
>> children
>> > of
>> > his listeners undoubtedly go through the stages faster.)  Towards the
>> end
>> > of the chapter he wrote as follows:
>> > "Moreover, we will find collective accelerations in certain social
>> classes
>> > and in certain milieux" (pp. 25-26), and went on to discuss
>> differences
>> in
>> > children's responses in Geneva, Montreal,  Martinique (a delay of
>> > approximately four years), Tehran (similar to Geneva), and rural Iran
>> (a
>> > delay of approximately 2.5 years).
>> >
>> > We can, of course, argue about the manner in which non-schooled
>> children
>> > were tested (as Mike and others have done very effectively), but it's
>> > really hard to say that Piaget held that culture or class were
>> irrelevant
>> > to children's cognitive development.
>> >
>> > In the book that Artin mentioned you can also find lots of evidence of
>> the
>> > ways in which parents and children influence children's social and
>> moral
>> > development--yet still we're confronted with the image of Piaget's
>> child
>> > being the little scientist working alone on the mysteries of the
>> world.
>> >
>> > All the best,
>> >
>> > Jon
>> >
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> > Jonathan Tudge
>> > Professor
>> > Office: 155 Stone
>> > ***Important*** Please note that I have a new office phone line***
>> >
>> > Mailing address:
>> > 248 Stone Building
>> > Department of Human Development and Family Studies
>> > PO Box 26170
>> > The University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>> > Greensboro, NC 27402-6170
>> > USA
>> >
>> > phone (336) 223-6181. [However, given the amount I travel, it's best
>> to
>> > communicate with me by email.]
>> > fax   (336) 334-5076
>> >
>> > http://www.uncg.edu/hdf/facultystaff/Tudge/Tudge.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Huw Lloyd
>> > <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 13 February 2013 21:19, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > In re-reading Piaget for a class I teach, I saw the following
>> >> sentences
>> >> in
>> >> > "The Moral Judgement of the Child" that I had underlined many years
>> >> ago,
>> >> > noticed them again, and felt that he may not have been given
>> >> sufficient
>> >> > credit for his observations about the role of culture and class in
>> his
>> >> > discussions.  On p. 209-10 referring to the findings he has just
>> >> reported,
>> >> > he says "To begin with, they relate only to the children belonging
>> to
>> >> a
>> >> > certain ethnical (sic) group and a certain social stratum (the
>> poorer
>> >> > parts of Geneva and a few children from an elementary school at
>> >> > Neuchatel.)  I wish he had theorized about the role of culture and
>> >> class,
>> >> > going beyond these observations but that is another story...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> My reading recollection is that he is forever hedging his bets and
>> >> encumbered by an audience expecting a "rational" account of genetic
>> >> phenomena.  On one occasion I was hunting about for some Piagetian
>> ideas
>> >> that, I was confident, were laid out with clarity only to discover
>> that
>> >> is
>> >> was Vygotsky writing about Piaget.
>> >>
>> >> No doubt there's much more to it -- the influence of idioms such as
>> >> French
>> >> sociologists and psychologists, translations etc.
>> >>
>> >> Huw
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Artin Goncu, Ph.D
>> >> > Professor,
>> >> > Educational Psychology
>> >> > College of Education M/C 147
>> >> > 1040 W. Harrison St.
>> >> > Chicago, IL 60607
>> >> > http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
>> >> > (312) 996-5259
>> >> >
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>>
>>
>> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
>> Professor,
>> Educational Psychology
>> College of Education M/C 147
>> 1040 W. Harrison St.
>> Chicago, IL 60607
>> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
>> (312) 996-5259
>>
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Artin Goncu, Ph.D
Professor,
Educational Psychology
College of Education M/C 147
1040 W. Harrison St.
Chicago, IL 60607
http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
(312) 996-5259

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