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Re: [xmca] Readung Piaget again...
Larry
I am busy reading the latest authoritative account of Piaget (2009). I
will have to present that before going back to Furth Later today GMT+2
here. 12:40
On 17 February 2013 06:05, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Martin, Carol
>
> I was curious if there would be further conversation in response to the
> Furth and Youniss article on a Piagetian model of development
> within stages.
>
> I had a question while reading page 131 on the development of moral
> consciousness *in the wild*. The wild in this case was adolescents working
> in a homeless shelter as a component of their FORMAL religion class on
> Christian social justice.
>
> Youniss believed his assessment of this particular CASE of moral
> development was capturing and validating Piaget's stage theory of moral
> development WITHIN social formations of moral thinking. Youniss, following
> the students for an entire year was able to *observe* the students raising
> questions which are central KEY components of developing a mature and
> responsible morality. Youniss *observed* that students INTERactive
> discussions were not linear expressions of either conservative or liberal
> moral perspectives. Youniss found no overall bias towards either liberal or
> conservative stances. but rather the students were observed to be engaged
> towards reconciling these differing positions.
> The example given, of black teenage mothers who OUGHT to either go to
> school in order to BECOME self-sufficient or go to work to earn enough
> money to self sufficiently take care of their children and not depend on
> public support.
>
> Youniss seems to be framing his *general* stage theory within particular
> Christian notions of *development*. Yes, he is exploring interaction and
> differing perspectives [*oughts*] but within a particular Christian model
> of *self-sufficiency* which presupposes that development has a trajectory
> towards *self* differentiation as a *developing* ability or capacity.
>
> My question is if this stage model is actually a particular *genre* or
> *tradition* which presupposes our canonical notions of psychology as
> self-development. Yes, within a social mileau of dialogue with others BUT
> within a particular *genre* with biased prejudices and assumptions of a
> particular trajectory towards self development. In other words a particular
> STYLE or TYPE of psychological discourse within the genre of *psy*
> discourses.
> I am not questioning the moral values expressed or that these values
> develop within social interaction. However, the historical aspect of
> development WITHIN particular styles or genres.
> [in particular the *psy* genre of selves as developing towards self
> sufficiency is not a universal story or narrative or genre.]
>
> There are multiple, plural forms of discourse now developing which are
> *deeply* dialogical all the way down. To be human within these developing
> *deeply* dialogical genres is to understand human nature as always
> addressing the other. Face to face conversation within communicative
> structures is the paradigm model. However dialogical thinking, dialogical
> writing as texts, prelinguistic and extralinguistic ways of being
> addrressed by the other [alterity] develop within this alternative genre
> of discourse. Psychology as a discourse also becomes TRANSlated into a
> different genre.
>
> I am not sure if these reflections need to be TRANSlated into cultural
> historical traditions of discourse. However, the question of what TYPE or
> genre of development [and the biases implicit within *general* stage
> models] I believe develop further clarity within historical genres of
> development.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Oh excuse me, I only saw the attachment after I sent the message. Thanks
> > Martin. Will read this.
> > Carol
> >
> > On 14 February 2013 20:40, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > Have you got access to that on our behalf--I say this because Furth
> > is/was
> > > a good exponent of classical Piaget. (Late Piaget is different and
> > > exceptionally difficult.)
> > >
> > > Look forward to it.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> > > On 14 February 2013 20:20, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >> There's also this:
> > >>
> > >> Furth, H. G., & Youniss, J. (2000). Reflections on Piaget's
> sociological
> > >> studies. New Ideas in Psychology, 18(2-3), 121-133.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:14 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Mike,
> > >> >
> > >> > Piaget wrote a book called "Six sociological studies" which was only
> > >> > available in French for many years. I am going to look for
> > >> information, as
> > >> > my copy was stolen. For him, "sociological' was roughly the same as
> > >> > "social".
> > >> >
> > >> > Will get back to you.
> > >> >
> > >> > Carol
> > >> >
> > >> > On 14 February 2013 19:30, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> I agree with Armando. Among other things, that document about event
> > >> >> planning provides an interesting
> > >> >> start on analyzing certain generalizable categories relevant to the
> > >> >> division of labor and its dynamics.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> People are responding to my original question about "what is an
> > event"
> > >> in
> > >> >> terms of different discourses
> > >> >> focused on different levels of scale, in the chat sense.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sewell and Sahlins are concerned with events at the level of
> > memorable
> > >> and
> > >> >> memorialized history
> > >> >> events in discussion issues of agency and structure at the cultural
> > >> >> historical level.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Cultural-mediational psychologists and other ontogeny-oriented
> folks
> > >> look
> > >> >> at socially defined events
> > >> >> of long standing such as birthdays and innaugurations wars, etc.
> This
> > >> >> branches into the branches that Greg has pointed to in sociology,
> > >> symbolic
> > >> >> interactionisn, cultural studies. And it branched "down" into
> > >> developmental
> > >> >> psychology using notions such as event schemas/scripts.....
> secondary
> > >> >> artifacts in Wartofskian terms.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I sure have a pile of reading to do! Serves me right wondering what
> > >> events
> > >> >> have to do with communication. :-)
> > >> >> mike
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Justo, Armando <ArmandoJ@iadb.org
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> Hi Carol,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> That is a very interesting question and I personally think that
> CHAT
> > >> is
> > >> >>> great for the analysis. These behaviors represent historical
> > accepted
> > >> >> forms
> > >> >>> of activity for these positions that establish the "norms"
> > applicable
> > >> to
> > >> >>> its incumbents. The credentialization movement is grounded in
> these
> > >> type
> > >> >> of
> > >> >>> approaches.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> One possibility could be the analysis of use value and exchange
> > value
> > >> to
> > >> >>> see how individuals use this set of behaviors to develop and to
> > foster
> > >> >>> their employability, and how organizations use the same behaviors
> to
> > >> >> define
> > >> >>> the rules for the activity. Sawchuk (2003) does a very interesting
> > >> >> analysis
> > >> >>> of this type for the functions of a university professor.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Another performative lens would help incumbents to see these
> > examples
> > >> as
> > >> >>> developmental possibilities "to be both who they are and who they
> > are
> > >> >>> becoming" (Holzman, 2009).
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> I hope this helps!
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Best regards,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Armando
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> >>> From: Carol Macdonald [mailto:carolmacdon@gmail.com]
> > >> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 04:55 AM
> > >> >>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Events: Assistance requested
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Armando,
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> This is obviously a correct and comprehensive account. I do,
> > however,
> > >> >>> wonder how Mike is going to conceptualise that in CHAT!
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Carol
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> On 13 February 2013 21:07, Justo, Armando <ArmandoJ@iadb.org>
> > wrote:
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>> Dear Mike,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Years ago I conducted the profiling of technical competencies for
> > one
> > >> >>>> organization that has the position of "event planners". Their job
> > >> >>>> encompassed four key areas: (i) knowledge of norms and
> regulations,
> > >> >> (ii)
> > >> >>>> events management , (iii) contract services management, and (i)
> > >> budget
> > >> >>>> management.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Below are the responsibilities of this position. I hope it
> helps,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Best regards,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Armando Justo
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> ________
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Event Planning and Production includes staff who are responsible
> > for
> > >> >> the
> > >> >>>> organization, coordination and execution of various events. Their
> > >> >>>> responsibilities encompass the coordination and supervision of
> all
> > >> >>>> protocol, ceremonial, and logistic aspects of these events
> applying
> > >> >>>> appropriate norms and regulations.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> (i) Norms and Regulations
> > >> >>>> . Defines logistical and physical event requirements, making
> > >> >>>> recommendations based on client needs, cost benefits and protocol
> > >> >>> standards.
> > >> >>>> . Defines event strategies and establishes order of precedence
> > based
> > >> on
> > >> >>>> analysis of agenda, list of attendees and cultural sensitivities.
> > >> >>>> . Guides staff on protocol matters, both written and procedural,
> > and
> > >> >>> guest
> > >> >>>> criteria.
> > >> >>>> . Conducts quality control, evaluating the performance and
> quality
> > of
> > >> >>>> services provided by vendors and facilities.
> > >> >>>> . Drafts recommendations for implementation of new protocol norms
> > and
> > >> >>>> procedures, based on identification of best market practices.
> > >> >>>> . Provides guidance on application of proper protocol procedures
> > for
> > >> >>>> official events.
> > >> >>>> . Anticipates potential complex and/or high visibility protocol
> > >> issues,
> > >> >>>> using sound judgment to identify and implement corrective
> > solutions.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> (ii) Events Management
> > >> >>>> . Advises involved players on logistical and protocol concerns
> and
> > >> >> needs,
> > >> >>>> providing strategic information regarding participant
> requirements
> > >> >> and/or
> > >> >>>> agenda issues.
> > >> >>>> . Initiates and coordinates corrective measures in response to
> > issues
> > >> >>>> identified regarding the planning and execution of events.
> > >> >>>> . Conducts quality assurance for processing and approval of
> > required
> > >> >>>> documentation, ensuring that requests for all necessary equipment
> > and
> > >> >>>> logistical requirements are complete and accurate.
> > >> >>>> . Defines critical success factors to be considered for execution
> > and
> > >> >>>> evaluation of event management.
> > >> >>>> . Defines criteria for identification of new facilities and
> > >> resources,
> > >> >>>> guiding staff in assessing factors to be considered, ensuring
> > >> >> compliance
> > >> >>>> with established procedures and maximization of financial
> > resources.
> > >> >>>> . Guides staff, providing information and answering inquiries on
> > best
> > >> >>>> utilization of available resources and/or need for additional
> > >> >> resources.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> (iii) Contract Services Management
> > >> >>>> . Monitors work performed by consultants and contractors,
> ensuring
> > >> >>>> satisfactory delivery of services in compliance with contract
> > >> >>>> specifications and schedules, identifying any corrective actions
> > >> >>> necessary.
> > >> >>>> . Develop contractual agreements that maximize protection and
> value
> > >> for
> > >> >>>> the organization, and meet the business requirements.
> > >> >>>> . Negotiates and/or renegotiates contract terms and conditions,
> > >> >> ensuring
> > >> >>>> best cost value while maintaining quality of service.
> > >> >>>> . Educates external providers on conference or audio-visual norms
> > and
> > >> >>>> guidelines, monitoring their work to ensure successful event
> > >> >> organization
> > >> >>>> and/or services consistent with internal standards and
> procedures.
> > >> >>>> . Develops work programs and schedules according to upcoming
> event
> > >> >>>> requirements, and analysis of specific needs, optimizing the use
> of
> > >> >>>> financial and human resources.
> > >> >>>> . Establishes contract requirements, applying knowledge of market
> > >> >>>> conditions in the selection and hiring of consultants and service
> > >> >>> providers.
> > >> >>>> . In conjunction with the legal department, identifies legal
> > >> >> implications
> > >> >>>> of user or vendor requests, to reduce potential liability to the
> > >> >>>> organization.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> (iv) Budget Administration
> > >> >>>> . Analyzes and determines needed budget for events maximizing
> cost
> > >> >>> savings
> > >> >>>> and efficiency.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > >> xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > >> >>> On
> > >> >>>> Behalf Of "Engeström, Yrjö H M"
> > >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:34 PM
> > >> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Re: Events: Assistance requested
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> MIke, the historian/historical sociologist William H. Sewell, Jr.
> > has
> > >> >>>> built much of his theory of history on the concept of event. See
> > for
> > >> >>>> example:
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> -Sewell, W. H., Jr. (1996). Historical events as transformations
> of
> > >> >>>> structures: Inventing revolution at the Bastille. Theory and
> > Soecity,
> > >> >>>> 25(6), 841-881.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> -Sewell, W. H., Jr. (1996). Three temporalities: Toward and
> > eventful
> > >> >>>> sociology. In T. J. McDonald (Ed.), The historic turn in the
> human
> > >> >>>> sciences. University of Michigan Press.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Cheers,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> Yrjö
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> On Feb 13, 2013, at 7:26 PM, mike cole wrote:
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>> This is all very helpful. I recommend that stanford encyclopedia
> > >> >> entry
> > >> >>>>> for a way to think about the span of levels and range of
> phenomena
> > >> to
> > >> >>>>> which we apply the term, event.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Note that in Pepper's "world hypotheses" view, "the event" is
> the
> > >> >> unit
> > >> >>>>> of analysis of contextualism.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> hmmmm
> > >> >>>>> mike
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Helena Worthen <
> > >> >>> helenaworthen@gmail.com
> > >> >>>>> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Mike-
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> One form of "event planning," which I assume includes
> everything
> > >> >> from
> > >> >>>>>> kid's birthday parties to a ride at Disneyland to political
> > >> >>>>>> conventions, is theater production. From the job description
> > point
> > >> >> of
> > >> >>>>>> view, the person listed as "producer" for a play is responsible
> > for
> > >> >>>>>> everything from raising the money, writing the budget, choosing
> > the
> > >> >>>>>> play and publicizing it, hiring the director and other
> technical
> > >> >>>>>> staff and shaping how it is interpreted by the media and
> finally
> > >> >>>>>> deciding when it closes and paying off (or apologizing) to the
> > >> >>>>>> investors. As Jim Mackenzie, who was Producer at ACT in San
> > >> >> Francisco
> > >> >>>>>> once said, "Sometimes all you have to do is say 'Let's do it'
> and
> > >> >>>> sometimes you're sewing on the zippers."
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> When I googled "theater production", however, I saw that
> theater
> > >> >>>>>> departments who teach production focus on what goes on
> backstage
> > --
> > >> >>>>>> costumes, wigs, makeup, set design, lighting. That's much
> > narrower
> > >> >>>>>> than what a producer does. No useful book showed up.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Nonetheless, theater might be a good way to talk about event
> > >> >> planning
> > >> >>>>>> because of a key feature of both: they are both bounded by the
> > >> >>>>>> audience's or the participant's, encounter with them. They
> > require
> > >> >>>>>> taking the audience's perspective from the first awareness
> > >> >>>>>> (pre-publicity) all the way through to the memory of the event.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> I found this perspective useful when producing the annual
> > >> >> conferences
> > >> >>>>>> for labor educators, which were very successful and drew
> > increasing
> > >> >>>>>> numbers of participants over the four years I was doing it.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> Helena Worthen
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>> On 2/12/13 3:57 PM, "mike cole" <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> Ah! Well, I started to send this note to all of you, then
> > decided
> > >> >> to
> > >> >>>>>>> send to daughter, but ended up sending to all of you after
> all,
> > so
> > >> >>>>>>> here is the problem. Delete if this is an intrusion on your
> > time.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> I am teaching a class where students are interest in an
> activity
> > >> >>>>>>> called "event planning" for which people are sometime paid
> > enough
> > >> >> to
> > >> >>>>>>> make a living. The difficulty is that the students do not
> appear
> > >> to
> > >> >>>>>>> have been taught anything they can remember about events and
> > this
> > >> >> is
> > >> >>>>>>> a senior class. So I am doing some digging with them, and now
> > with
> > >> >>>>>>> you.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> The dictionary is of limited use:
> > >> >>>>>>> * *
> > >> >>>>>>> *a. * Something that takes place; an occurrence.
> > >> >>>>>>> *b. * A significant occurrence or happening. See Synonyms at
> > >> >>>>>>> occurrence<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/occurrence>
> > >> >>>>>>> .
> > >> >>>>>>> *c. * A social gathering or activity.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> A philosophical dictionary lays out the problem territory in
> > >> >> greater
> > >> >>>>>>> detail: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/events/#EveVsObj
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> For events of type c, which the students are most concerned
> with
> > >> of
> > >> >>>>>>> course, my thought was to turn to the work of Turner,
> > Goffman.....
> > >> >>>>>>> but I cannot use an entire book.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> I would appreciate suggestions for sources that would help me
> > and
> > >> >> my
> > >> >>>>>>> students to think about events, especially as they relate to a
> > >> >>>>>>> process called communication.
> > >> >>>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>> mike
> > >> >>>>>>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>>>>>> _____
> > >> >>>>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>>>> _____
> > >> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>>> _____
> > >> >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>>> _____
> > >> >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> --
> > >> >>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > >> >>> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> > >> >>> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> > >> >>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> > >> >>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>> _____
> > >> >>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>> __________________________________________
> > >> >>> _____
> > >> >>> xmca mailing list
> > >> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>>
> > >> >> __________________________________________
> > >> >> _____
> > >> >> xmca mailing list
> > >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > >> > Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> > >> > Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> > >> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> > >> > __________________________________________
> > >> > _____
> > >> > xmca mailing list
> > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> __________________________________________
> > >> _____
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > > Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> > > Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> > > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> > Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> > Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> > Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
--
Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
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