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Re: [xmca] speaking of rocks and cathedrals



That is a killer book, and Ilyenkov's chapter is one of the best summaries of truly dialectic materialism ever, must be read together with Leontiev's one. 

Best

Arturo 


On 3 Jan 2012, at 13:01, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Well, you will see at the bottom of that page a link to http://www.marxists.org/subject/psychology/works/lektorsky/essay_77.htm
> which is an article-length presentation of the book. This was included in a marvellous Progress Publishers collection which included Ilyenkov's Concept of the Ideal, and AN Leontyev's "Activity and Consciousness", both also on marxists.org, with 9 other articles.
> 
> Could someone read that 1977 article and pull out an important quote?
> 
> Andy
> 
> mike cole wrote:
>> Thanks Andy--
>> 
>> It would be really interesting to read jointly, but no idea in the world of how to accomplish that!!
>> mike
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>    Yep.
>> 
>>    http://www.marxists.org/archive/lektorsky/subject-object/index.htm
>> 
>>    Andy
>>    mike cole wrote:
>> 
>>        Great to have Lektorsky brought into this conversation. I
>>        wonder, is the
>>        book widely available in English? Did I miss a link somewhere?
>>        mike
>> 
>>        On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Haydi Zulfei
>>        <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
>>        <mailto:haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>>wrote:
>> 
>>         
>>            Overcoming the deep-thinking and worry of the problems of
>>            the Region ,
>>            Dear Larry , I came to my study to read anew the once-read
>>            article sent to
>>            you and , happy to say , I'm exactly at the point you're
>>            stationing on page
>>            22 . Yes , I accept the WHOLE of what V. A . Lektorsky
>>            says in this article
>>            and His "Subject,Object,Activity" , a book , indeed .
>>            Thank you , too , for
>>            your insistence on finding a way for 'dialogues' .  Haydi
>>              ( out Net
>>            problems most of the time ! hope it works ! )
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>            ________________________________
>>             From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>            <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
>>            To: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
>>            <mailto:haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
>>            Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>            Cc: Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu
>>            <mailto:boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>>
>>            Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 10:02:13
>>            Subject: Re: [xmca] speaking of rocks and cathedrals
>> 
>> 
>>            Robert, I want to agree with you and acknowledge the
>>            poetic way Haydi
>>            expressed these relations.
>> 
>>            Haydi, I also am enjoying reading the article on Social
>>            Being and the
>>            Human Essence. On page 22 Lektorsky says,
>> 
>>            The self is seen as a system of relations, between myself
>>            and others.
>>            Outside of this system of relations, I simply cannot
>>            exist. I am by my
>>            nature a DIALOGICAL essence.... This approach gives rise
>>            to a whole range
>>            of questions which simply did not exist for Descartes or
>>            Fichte (they begin
>>            to emerge with Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit).  There is
>>            the problem of
>>            my Being-for-others, Being-for-myself, and the
>>            Being-of-others-for-me....
>>                In my view, introspection should not be conceived as a
>>            relation of
>>            someone to something purely INSIDE him - or herself, but
>>            as a SPECIAL WAY
>>            of relating oneself to others. Introspection is really
>>            'EXTRA-spection'.  A
>>            human being ALWAYS lives on the BOUNDARY between self and
>>            other.
>> 
>>            Haydi, do you accept the centraity of the QUESTIONS that
>>            Lektorsky is
>>            posing as necessary themes to have conversations about???
>> 
>>            I'm going back to reading the article.  The method of written
>>            composition [the genre] in how David Bakhurst is
>>            presenting these themes is
>>            enjoyable as I love listening in on others conversations.
>> 
>>            Haydi thanks for taking the steps into action to respond
>>            to my reflections
>>            that come from left-field.
>> 
>>            Larry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>            On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Haydi Zulfei
>>            <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
>>            <mailto:haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>>
>>            wrote:
>> 
>>            You are so kind , Robert !!  At times , in my confusion ,
>>            I don't know how
>>            to :-)  Encouraging !! Thanks a lot !! I did wish you a
>>            happy New Year ,
>>            too .    Haydi
>>               
>> 
>>                ________________________________
>>                From: Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu
>>                <mailto:boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>>
>>                To: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
>>                <mailto:haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>>; "eXtended Mind,
>>                Culture,
>>                     
>>            Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>               
>>                Sent: Monday, 2 January 2012, 7:47:41
>> 
>>                Subject: Re: [xmca] speaking of rocks and cathedrals
>> 
>> 
>>                Wow Havdi!
>>                Have you written about this in greater detail anywhere?
>>                If so can you direct me? If not, you need to.
>>                Happy New Year!
>>                Robert Lake
>> 
>> 
>>                On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 6:04 AM, Haydi Zulfei
>>                <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com
>>                <mailto:haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>>
>>                     
>>            wrote:
>>               
>>                True Andy !
>>                     
>>                    I didn't continue : " The moment the floundering
>>                    footstep of the IDEAL
>>                           
>>            touches the firm GROUND of the 'world of reality' , as to
>>            its nature , it
>>            jumps once again in a space of a blink , yearning to unite
>>            anew with her
>>            beloved consort fere , the ACTION , towards a re-start of
>>            another pulse of
>>            'subjectivity' "
>>               
>> 
>>                    ________________________________
>>                    From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>                    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>                    To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>>                    <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>                    Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2012, 17:58:41
>>                    Subject: Re: [xmca] speaking of rocks and cathedrals
>> 
>> 
>>                    Well, it becomes an ideal I guess.
>> 
>>                    And on that I beg to differ with just one of
>>                    Haydi's dot points.
>> 
>>                    Haydi said: "Ideal , when reified, is no longer
>>                    ideal."
>> 
>>                    I would have thought that when an ideal is
>>                    reified, then it attains the
>>                           
>>            most stable of all possible forms of reification. That
>>            pile of rocks, if
>>            exumed 2000 years later, may still exhibit the properties
>>            of a cathedral if
>>            the thought was put into action by Saint Exupery.
>>               
>>                    For 2012, I guess I look forward to the deepening
>>                    economic decline of
>>                           
>>            Europe and the US putting pressure on China to stimulate
>>            its domestic
>>            market, and thereby lend more power to the rising tide of
>>            resistance among
>>            ordinary people demanding the rule of law in their
>>            country. And I would
>>            dearly like to see Syria join Libya and build something
>>            worthwhile from the
>>            ashes of their previous efforts to shake off imperialist
>>            domination. And it
>>            would be good to see Iran join the Arab Spring too. And
>>            keep the US the
>>            hell out of intervening in that country.
>>               
>>                    Andy
>> 
>>                    mike cole wrote:
>> 
>>                           
>>                        I want to join the voices for wishing all
>>                        "present" the best of
>>                                 
>>            fortune in
>>               
>>                        the new year. We now reach from Invertebrates
>>                        to God in our modest
>>                                 explorations of the processes of
>>                        human development. :))
>>                                 The following thought came to me in
>>                        thinking about what ensues if one
>>                                 accepts the invitation to imagine
>>                                 what will happen in the next year --
>>                        what you hope for, what you fear,
>>                                 
>>            what
>>               
>>                        you could not expect and so
>>                                 can't think about. It is from St.
>>                        Exupery.
>>                                 A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile
>>                        the moment a single man
>>                                 
>>            contemplates
>>               
>>                        it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.
>>                                  Antoine de Saint-Exupery<
>>                                 
>>            http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/antoinedes161736.html>
>>               
>>                        Its an interesting thought, but "negative" in
>>                        the sense that it tells
>>                                 
>>            us
>>               
>>                        what a rock ceases to be but does not
>>                                 specify what it has become "the
>>                        moment it a single man contemplates
>>                                 
>>            it."
>>               
>>                        It seems apt to the discussion.
>>                                 An awful lot takes place in that moment!
>>                                 Happy New Year,
>>                                 mike
>>                                 
>>                    --
>>                           
>>            ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>               
>>                    *Andy Blunden*
>> 
>>                    Joint Editor MCA:
>>                    http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
>> 
>>                    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>                    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>> 
>>                    Book:
>>                    http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
>>                    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> 
>> 
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>>                           
>>                --
>> 
>>                Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>> 
>>                Assistant Professor
>>                Social
>>                Foundations of Education
>>                Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and
>>                Reading
>>                Georgia Southern University
>>                P. O. Box 8144
>>                Phone: (912)
>>                478-5125
>>                Fax: (912) 478-5382
>>                Statesboro, GA  30460
>> 
>> 
>>                Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and
>>                education is its midwife.
>> 
>>                -John Dewey.
>>                __________________________________________
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>>                     
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>> 
>>         
>> 
>>    --     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
>>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
>>    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> 
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