Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

What you say complements what I wrote, Bella.
On the surface, there was a more or less unified "school" for which
Vygotsky was the fulcrum. No reason to show the differences to students.

Ulvi-- I am sure that somewhere in the vast literature on Vygotsky and
post-Vygotskian psychology you will find people who dig into
interpersonal relationships a lot. Its the kind of thing that have trouble
remembering, even in my personal life and have to be reminded about. Luria
NEVER made any negative comments to me about Leontiev. He appeared to share
my tendency toward selective forgetting.

I think focus on the intellectual level is sufficient. Activity theory, for
example, is attributed, quite correctly in my view, to Leontiev and/or
Rubenshtein. Luria rarely, and only in a passing fashion, used the term
activity, and when he did it was almost within the context of
neuropsychological analysis. He invokes the term (40s after the work) in his
writeup of the research in Central Asia, but there is no analysis there. He
repeatedly and insistently claimed to know little of marxist-leninist theory
and always deferred to Leontiev on this topic if it came up.

There are many key Luria neuropsychological texts in English and as Bella
notes, and insists in his autobiograpy, his work is profitably seen as a
continuation of work begun jointly during Vygotsky's lifetime. His focus on
nomothetic versus idiographic analysis, which predates his involvement with
Vygotsky, is in my view fully compatible with Vygotsky who simply wrote less
about the issue.

mike
On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 3:02 AM, Bella Kotik-Friedgut <bella.kotik@gmail.com
> wrote:

> As a student I took part in Leontjev's course on geleral psychology and the
> his distancing was not obvious (at least for us as students because one of
> the compulsory tasks was to read "  Thinking and Speech" and to be examined
> fully on one book as well as another task to read Leontjev;s "Problems of
> development of mind") As for the tradition: Luria's "Basics of
> Neuropsychology" is based on Vygotsky's ideas  quite explicitly. Is this
> an expression of cultural-historical tradition?
>
> Bella Kotik
> .
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 5:57 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Achilles. I think we have lived to witness exactly "non-liner genetic
>> course
>> or history."  For many complex reasons Vygotsky "missed" the dominant
>> trend
>> of his times, behaviorism/psychoanalysis" in a way that anticipated the
>> turn
>> away from Piaget (who did not become "mainstream" in USA until late
>> 1950's-60's) and banishment of Freud from mainstream psychology to
>> cultural
>> studies circles and, in watered down fashion, human potential movements)
>> so
>> that when
>> Toulmin wrote about "The mozart of psychology" his clearly idiocyncratic
>> interpretation fell like a match into a pool of gasoline (that looked for
>> all the world like a pool of water). The "Vygotsky
>> explosion" that many, such as Laszlo Garai in Hungary have written about,
>> and that so irritate many, was the result.
>>
>> Its really a fascinating process to have lived through, contributed to,
>> been guilty of, etc.
>>
>> And look at one of its consequences. We chatter across the globe as
>> easily,
>> or more easily, than we get a loaf of bread...... while others starve.
>>
>> Non linear for sure.
>> mike
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>>  achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I am not historicist, but I can remember something from Benjamin about
>> > "tradition" x "conservationism" ... That tradition is not always
>> > conservative nor authoritarian, there are democratic, dialogical,
>> > revolutionary traditions too... I guess - in addition - that perhaps
>> > something like a "cultural tradition" (any cultural tradition, in
>> diverse
>> > fields of society collective actions) can have a non-liner genetic
>> course or
>> > history... I dont know if this is terminologically possible or adequate.
>> But
>> > a psychological theory, and/or approach, and/or "perspective" (has some
>> > people tell here in Brazil: "historical-cultural perspective") - can not
>> be
>> > like a dogmatic religious tradition (despite I have any doubts if even
>> > religions can be strictly dogmatic all the time without any secular
>> > influences and changes to dialog with broader cultural contexts, etc.).
>> In
>> > this sense neither behaviorism or psychoanalysis could be understood as
>> an
>> > strict "tradition" (there was fights and ruptures all the time,
>> dissidences,
>> > detours, new trends, and interpretations, etc.). Scientific thought
>> > presupposes changes as a sine qua non condition of its own existence...
>> Of
>> > course, in the field of the Vygotsky's intelectual, cultural, legacy
>> > ("puzzle kind" legacy) the discontinuous, intermittent, sometimes
>> enigmatic,
>> > character of the history of this "(non)tradition" it is very eminent.
>> There
>> > are several important intellectual disputes about the "correct
>> > interpretation", the best exegetic tools, etc. But how can we name this
>> > historical process? Is there something in this that can have the same
>> name?
>> > Every new name means an actual paradigmatic rupture? A name never can be
>> > only one meaning, of course. The sample of the name of the Journal is
>> really
>> > worthwhile - a kind of "family name" (as "complex" in thought and
>> language
>> > relations). People sometimes use names, words, has sign of some
>> collective
>> > identity, to be included in a broader common troupe of social actors...
>> this
>> > is far to be something harmonious or ideally synergistic, but exist some
>> > need to stay in touch with persons that have some common interests,
>> mainly
>> > common values, as Mike said. If this can be named a tradition, now I
>> already
>> > don't if is the more important question.
>> > Achilles.
>> >
>> > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:26:30 -0800
>> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
>> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps we can get the shif book translated if it is interesting. Does
>> it
>> > > exist in Russian, Anton?
>> > >
>> > > I disagree with only one part of what you say about
>> "cultural-historical"
>> > > school never existing. In the period from about 1956 following
>> Stalin's
>> > > death, to the death of Luria and Leontiev, there was an identifiable
>> > group
>> > > of people who met together, talked together, shared certain ideas and
>> > > values. They were also quite influential as heads of some departments
>> and
>> > > institutes. They did not all agree with each other (Achille's
>> evocation
>> > of
>> > > family strikes me as about right) and Leontiev was both feared and
>> > distanced
>> > > from the others, but they maintained a kind of uneasy alliance. Here I
>> > would
>> > > include
>> > > Luria, Zaporzhets, Elkonin, Slavina, Morozova, and perhaps a few
>> others.
>> > >
>> > > It is a great irony that NOW there is a journal of cultural-historical
>> > > psychology in Russia. But perhaps, not a bad thing.
>> > > mike (socio-cultural-historical activity scholar) :-))
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>> > > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I really understand... Maybe we can say that Vygotsky himself was
>> > notever
>> > > > following his own "project"... In some documents (letters) he
>> > expresshis
>> > > > desire to dedicate to an species of "cause", the "reconstruction of
>> > > > allpsychological science, building an unified approach, but I really
>> > feel
>> > > > that therewas no "tradition" stricto sensu, nor no "vigotskian
>> school"
>> > in a
>> > > > very definitefashion... Even more to read Vygotsky is hard
>> exegetical
>> > task,
>> > > > his all workseems to be a kind of complex million pieces puzzle, at
>> > least
>> > > > for us non Russianreaders... I dont know... But when everybody lies,
>> we
>> > need
>> > > > to think aboutmethodological tools to define if there is a possible
>> > > > differentiation betweenlies and truth, or we can be satisfied with
>> the
>> > > > impossibility of any truth inany social discourse... In capitalists
>> > liberal
>> > > > regimes, people can tell some liesin order to satisfy editorial
>> needs
>> > and
>> > > > market demands too... financial researchfounds to their(our)
>> projects,
>> > and
>> > > > so on. Then, nobody is without guilt... inthis great social game for
>> > > > personal success in unequal power relationships, between nations,
>> > between
>> > > > institutions, between groups, persons, or evenbetween brothers at
>> the
>> > same
>> > > > home...
>> > > > :-(
>> > > > Best wishes.
>> > > >
>> > > > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:35:51 -0800
>> > > > > From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Same thing. No answer. Special research needed. Everybody lies.
>> From
>> > > > 1930s -- onwards.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Also, note: "Cultural-historical tradition" sensu Vygotsky never
>> > existed.
>> > > > And hardly exists today.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----
>> > > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:24 PM
>> > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Anton,
>> > > > > This sounds much better! :-)Thank you very much. And about this
>> > > > title?Психология глухих. (Под ред. И.М. Соловьева, Ж.И. Шиф, Т.В.
>> > Розановой
>> > > > и Н.В. Яшковой), М., 1971.Not already from the 1930s... What you
>> > recommends?
>> > > > I found an recent Russian publication from 2006,{
>> > > > http://bookseller.ru/book.php?n=1454} but I did not feel secure to
>> > order
>> > > > in my blind condition tounderstand the book importance or relation
>> to
>> > > > historical-cultural tradition...
>> > > > > Thank you.
>> > > > > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:48:14 -0800
>> > > > > > From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > RE: Its important to know that it is not near to Vygotsky's
>> trends.
>> > --
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I never said so. I guess I meant to state that the connection is
>> > not
>> > > > obvious and requires substantial textual analysis. Especially so,
>> given
>> > the
>> > > > deliberately cryptic style of writing in Soviet Psychology from the
>> > 1930s
>> > > > onwards...
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
>> > > > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>> > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:12:00 PM
>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I understand.Thank you very much.I saw that there is something
>> from
>> > her
>> > > > about deaf psychology, for instance, etc.Its important to know that
>> it
>> > is
>> > > > not near to Vygotsky's trends.
>> > > > > > Best.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:10:21 -0800
>> > > > > > > From: the_yasya@yahoo.com
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I personally strongly doubt any translation of this book ever
>> > > > existed.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Good luck anyway!
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > -- However, there is other stuff by Shif available in English,
>> > but it
>> > > > is hardly related to her Leningrad work and represent her later
>> Moscow
>> > work
>> > > > in defectology...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
>> > > > > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > > > > > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 2:37:26 AM
>> > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] Zhozephina Shif – something in English?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hi XMCA
>> > > > > > > people…
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > In order to
>> > > > > > > help another friend of mine, biologist, studying scientific
>> > concepts
>> > > > > > > development, I’m wonder if you have any notice about English
>> > > > (Spanish, French,
>> > > > > > > etc.) publication from the following text:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Shif, J. I. “Razvitie nauchnykh ponyatii u schko’nika:
>> > > > > > > Issledovanie k voprosu umstvenogo razvitiya shkol’nika pri
>> > obuchenii
>> > > > > > > obshchestvovedeniyu” [The development of scientific concepts
>> in
>> > the
>> > > > school
>> > > > > > > child: The investigation of intellectual development of the
>> > school
>> > > > child in
>> > > > > > > social science instruction]. Moscow – Leningrad:
>> Gosudarstvennoe
>> > > > > > > Uchebno-Pedagicheskoe Izdatel’stvo. 1935.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I’m trying
>> > > > > > > the Russian high now, but we are not so prepared to actually
>> > > > translate Russian so
>> > > > > > > soon, without a huge time spending… And there are many other
>> > Russian
>> > > > needs
>> > > > > > > prior at the schedule, most of that already provide thanks you
>> > all.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > If you have any notice... :-)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Thank you
>> > > > > > > very much. Good 2010 for all.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Best
>> > > > > > > wishes.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Achilles.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> _________________________________________________________________
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> --
> Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut
>
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