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Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal

To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:02:46 -0700
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Reply-to: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Sender: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
martin,
this article by dodd has deep relevance.
the type of sociology called *reflexive historical sociology* is
re-engaging with the *founding* fathers of sociology and opens up a GAP.
[see mike's paper on gaps]

Page 430 - 431 where Dodd explores Simmel's INTERPRETIVE [reflexive] way of
orienting engages with the relevance of imaginable realms.

Here is a relevant excerpt from page 430:

Simmel moves from BENEATH to BEYOND social facts. He says that the
sociologist who wants to supplement the fragmentary character of empirical
facts *in the direction of a closed system* must look for the religious or
metaphysical significance of them. THIS significance may be asserted OR
denied as both *derive from a super-empirical world view*.
According to Simmel such extensions beyond social life can only be arrived
at by INTERPRETING facts, *by efforts to bring the relative and
problematical elements of social reality UNDER an over-all view. This
over-all view does not compete with empirical claims but *serves needs
which are quite different from those answered by empirical propositions*.
To construct such an [over-all] view is a METAPHYSICAL trash based on
world-view, valuation, and ultimate or undemonstrable CONVICTION.
Is such an extension BEYOND social life desirable and necessary to achieve
what Simmel calls an over-all view? The answer depends on what QUALITIES an
over-all view would have Simmel suggests it should possess COMPLETENESS.
I [Dodd] want to suggest it does not require completeness. The task of
constructing it [over-all view] while perhaps requiring IMAGINATION is not
metaphysical. The task requires a PARTICULAR MODE OF PRESENTATION AND
REASONING.

Martin, I found this excerpt very relevant to what I understand as a
*medial voice* presenting an analogical kind or type of reasoning.
Ur-phenomena may be one way to return to reflexive historical sociology as
one polyphonic voice within cultural-historical gaps and openings.

larry


On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 10:53 AM, Martin John Packer <
mpacker@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:

> Then this might have some relevance...
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Jun 19, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Rauno Huttunen <rakahu@utu.fi> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I totally agree and that is why I prefer Horkheimer's social theory over
> Adorno's social theory althought their overlapp.
> >
> > Rauno
> > ________________________________________
> > Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> k&#228;ytt&#228;j&#228;n Andy Blunden [ablunden@mira.net] puolesta
> > Lähetetty: 19. kesäkuuta 2013 18:25
> > Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Aihe: Re: VS: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
> >
> > Interesting, Rauno.
> > I would have thought that the family as the germ cell of "society"
> > either implies a "sociey" which has long, long ago passed into the dim
> > past, or Adorno is using "society" in that peculiar meaning, as in
> > "everyone who is anyone", "society" as that more or less exclusive group
> > of the ultra wealthy elite. Otherwise, "society" is a bad concept. The
> > "nation state," bourgeois society, even "community" have some meaning.
> > But "society" when it is spoken of nowadays, is usually a fiction, I
> > think. Maybe the family is too???
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > Rauno Huttunen wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> Theodor Adorno in his Minima Moralia speaks about germ cell of society
> meaning family:
> >>
> >> "Unpolitical attempts to break out of the bourgeois family usually only
> lead to deeper entanglement in such, and sometimes it seems as if the
> disastrous germ-cell of society, the family, is simultaneously the
> nourishing germ-cell of the uncompromising will for a different one. "
> >>
> >> Rauno Huttunen
> >> ________________________________________
> >> Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> k&#228;ytt&#228;j&#228;n Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu] puolesta
> >> Lähetetty: 19. kesäkuuta 2013 13:38
> >> Vastaanottaja: eXtended Mind, Culture,  Activity
> >> Aihe: RE: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
> >>
> >> Sounds good. Thx,p
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 6:35 AM
> >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
> >>
> >> "Germ" was a term used for it by both Hegel and Goethe, but they did
> not know about "cells". But when Marx introduced the term "cell form" for
> the same idea (teh cell as the basic unit of biology had been discovered
> before 1987 when Marx wrote that), the term "germ cell" became current
> among Marxists. In Hegel it is the abstract concept of a complex process,
> and called Urphaenomen by Goethe,. Although to make sense of that, you have
> to know that a "concept" is as real and tangible as any artefact or ideal
> (which is also material) and as Davydov helpfully emphasised, (in
> principle) an observable material thing, not just an idea or schema. It is
> not some hidden hypothetical something like a force or property of some
> kind or law or principle (though it doe actually incarnate a principle).
> But it is the logically primary instance of the complex process, for which
> it acts as an archetype. This is not quite the same as an "exemplar" (or
> sample) which may be typical, but not necessarily of all the complex
> process. A "germ cell" or "unit of analysis" is not only immediately and
> vicerally understandable, but embodies the principle which unifies the
> entire complex process, and constitutes its unity. A sample is a concrete
> thing, but its various attributes have not been abstracted from it. The
> "germ cell" does not have contingent or accidental attributes; all its
> attributes are essential.
> >>
> >> Does that (off the top of my head) Spiel help, Peter?
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
> >>
> >>> So, how is a germ cell different from a sample?
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> >>> On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:32 PM
> >>> To: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity
> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
> >>>
> >>> Eric, attached is a contraband copy of Engestrom &Co.'s article for
> the Special Issue on Concept Formation - "Embodied Germ Cell at Work:
> >>> Building an Expansive Concept of Physical Mobility in Home Care." I
> have documented my theoretical differences with this article, but I have
> also endeavoured to put it into practice in my own one-patient
> rehabilitation facility here at home. This led me to further differences,
> but even I, who generally has scant regard for privacy, think it is all too
> private to share.
> >>>
> >>> This one you have to pay for, but here is the abstract:
> >>> http://tap.sagepub.com/content/21/5/598.abstract
> >>>
> >>> This is also the type of Engestrom approach which I appreciate. I
> don't again completely concur with the conclusions here, but I thnk it is a
> first class article!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Helena;
> >>>> Have not read him extensively enough but I do like his clinical
> >>>> approach to activity theory. Something that is tangible and can be
> >>>> conceptualized. Plan on reading him more. I found it interesting that
> >>>> he mentions "germ cell" only in passing and doesn't really expand
> >>>> much on it. I prefer his expanded triangle model of conceptualization
> >>>> and am not understandin why Andy is focused on the "germ cell"
> >>>> eric
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com> wrote: -----
> >>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>,
> >>>> <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>, <ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>> From: Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
> >>>> Date: 06/18/2013 11:02AM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
> >>>>
> >>>> Eric et al:
> >>>>
> >>>> I like to read whatever Engestrom material shows up on xmca; he's a
> >>>> brilliant and stimulating thinker, but sometimes I have to laugh.
> >>>>
> >>>> The link Eric posted iactually goes to a proposal, as in "grant
> >>>> proposal," although I'm not sure who was going to fund it. Engestrom
> >>>> is proposing an ongoing research project that would take place at
> >>>> three sites, a healthcare provider, a bank, and a telecommunications
> >>>> outfit. He wants to study how his group, the Change Laboratory, works
> >>>> with these entities.
> >>>>
> >>>> My problem with his creative approach to research is that he acts as
> >>>> if the whole world has moved on to whatever he's studying next. He
> >>>> talks about "the historical development of work," "work..transformed
> >>>> from mass production and mass customization to co-configuration of
> >>>> customer-intelligent products and services with long life cycles",
> >>>> "post-bureaucratic work", 'work as "a living, growing network.never
> >>>> finished," etc etc. This may be true of "work" as it occurs in the
> >>>> Change Laboratory, but for the vast majority of human beings, work
> >>>> has not moved on, is not post-bureaucratic, and does NOT involve
> >>>> being set up in a permanent, "never finished" contract with a
> >>>> hospital, bank or phone company to reflect on one's own process. Kind
> >>>> of like being on a permanent research retainer!
> >>>>
> >>>> Somewhere along the line Engestrom has lost sight of fact that work
> >>>> is significantly related to earning a living, at least for most
> people.
> >>>> Maybe the concept is lost in translation. I suggest that he use a
> >>>> different word, however. "Creative exploration, " for example. But
> >>>> not "work"!!
> >>>>
> >>>> Helena Worthen
> >>>>
> >>>> From: <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>
> >>>> Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>> Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:52 AM
> >>>> To: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >>>>
> >>>> Here is an paper where Yro discusses the "germ cell".
> >>>> http://www.edu.helsinki.fi/activity/people/engestro/files/The_Finnish
> >>>> _ proposal.pdf thought people might be interested, also rather short
> >>>> eric
> >>>>
> >>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> <mailto:-----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu> wrote: -----
> >>>> To: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>> From: Andy Blunden
> >>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> Date: 06/18/2013 12:17AM
> >>>> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >>>>
> >>>> To the extent that we have a consultant who is invited to resolve
> >>>> problems in an institution of some kind, if the impact on that the
> >>>> life of that institution can be validly abstracted from the other
> >>>> projects at work, such as governments, political or ethnic groups
> >>>> with grievances, patients who are campaigning to have a say in their
> >>>> health care, governments imposing cost-cutting and computer
> >>>> work-control systems intended to take the teachers out of education,
> >>>> and the nurses out of health care, etc. ... In other words, to the
> >>>> extent that the idea of a "system of actions" or "system of activity"
> >>>> with a neat boundary accurately reflects the social situation at
> >>>> issue, then I am sure the method of the triangle works fine.
> >>>>
> >>>> But what about the Egyptian Revolution, when workers (white collar
> >>>> public servants and highly exploited factory workers) and
> >>>> student-intellectuals all enter into a struggle against the US-backed
> >>>> torture-regime of Hosni Mubarak (with a mass of ruraal poor in the
> >>>> background), ... without knowing what they are wanting to achieve,
> >>>> not necessarily trusting the other parties,...? What about when gay
> >>>> men suddenly find themselves not only the target of an unknown deadly
> >>>> disease, but being blamed for spreading it to others, and the medical
> >>>> scientists want to use them as guinea pigs, they are threatened with
> >>>> bring forced to wear the equivalent of a Star of David, ... and yet
> >>>> they manage to not only defeat the disease but come out if it having
> >>>> won a huge victory agains homophobia and much improved social status.
> >>>> Wht about when the asbestos industry is marketing a miracle fibre
> >>>> which is still, a decade after it was eventually banned, killing
> >>>> 1000s in a horrible slow death, and the trade unions representing the
> >>>> workers are hand in glove with their employers, government regulators
> >>>> are being paid off and medical scientists (like the ones who told us
> >>>> tobacco is good for your health) are spreadig disinformation, ... and
> >>>> yet we got asbestos banned. Need I go on?
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't believe the "system of activity" approach can even get a
> >>>> handle on those situations. As you know I am in the process of
> >>>> editing a volume of studies using (to one extent or another) the
> "project"
> >>>> approach, to understand these processes, for the purpose of doing
> things like this.
> >>>> It includes idenfiying contradictions in the workings of institutions
> >>>> (such as medical science, health care, industrial diseases
> >>>> regulation, and so on) but it also deals with complex processes of
> >>>> social change, where the participants themselves are only just
> >>>> discovering what it is they are fighting for, and multiple projects
> are in play.
> >>>>
> >>>> These are the kind of issues I am interested in, so that is why I am
> >>>> interested in a theory which can deal with such issues,
> >>>>
> >>>> Andy
> >>>>
> >>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I fear this does not help me a whole lot, Andy.
> >>>>> Sorry I cannot grasp the method of Goethe properly. I guess Luria
> >>>>> probably failed as well. Or maybe he succeeded and I have
> >>>>> misunderstood him? Entirely possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I did not ask what what is at odds. I asked for what the empirical
> >>>>> consequences of the the distinctions you are making are. I cannot
> >>>>> follow the path to reforming all of the educational system of the
> >>>>> USSR or Russia, which, so far as I know, neither Vygotsky nor anyone
> >>>>> else associated with Activity Theory every accomplished. Nore have I
> >>>>> ever seen claims that they have. (The Finns appear to have done well
> >>>>> recently using an approach, the relationship to activity theory I
> >>>>> have no knowledge of, but perhaps our Finnish colleagues do).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Here is what would help me, and I suspect others on XMCA. Take an
> >>>>> already published piece of work that uses the expanded triangle Yrjo
> >>>>> proposes in Learning by Expanding. Say, the work on cleaners in the
> >>>>> early work. Tell us about the mistaken conclusions that arise
> >>>>> because of misunderstandings that confusion of the triangle for
> >>>>> "activity" (no
> >>>>> modifiers) causes. Suggest how we might improve our understanding.
> >>>>> Or tell us why that example works, but some other example (teachers
> >>>>> in schools, nurses and doctors in a hospital, etc.) does not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Or suggest an entirely different way of looking at matters so that
> >>>>> when we go into classrooms, housing projects, work places, we can
> >>>>> more effectively understand what is going on and be of more help to
> >>>>> those with whom we work that publishing another article in MCA.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess I am asking that you rise to the concrete here, keeping the
> >>>>> object of analysis constant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My apologies if this seems unreasonable. Perhaps it is approaching
> >>>>> senility, but I am failing to track you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lost in the words here.
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, in Yjro's (1986) words, it is a "root model". (The derivation
> >>>>> of it is a beautiful piece of work, too, close to Hegel's early
> >>>>> "System of Ethical Life". Deserves to remain in print).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But modelling a complex process is not the same as the method of
> >>>>> Goethe, Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky. As you know, Mike, in order to
> >>>>> understand this approach, which Luria called Romantic Science, I had
> >>>>> to go back to its origins c. 1787 when Goethe was doing his Journey
> >>>>> in Italy, studying all the plant life, and its variation by
> >>>>> altitude, latittude, nearness to the sea, etc., and in conversation
> >>>>> with J G Herder, arrived a his conception of Urphaenomen. The
> >>>>> Urphaenomen is not a model.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is an abstraction, true. And yes, the understanding of a complex
> >>>>> process by the "romantic" method is indeed, the rising to the
> >>>>> concrete, the logical-historical reconstruction of the whole process
> >>>>> from this abstract germ.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As I remarked (somewhere) I find Yrjo's work over the past couple of
> >>>>> years, which focuses more on the germ cell than the triangle, closer
> >>>>> to what I am trying to do. The germ cell is not a model either.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is at odds here is whether a real, complex situation (such as
> >>>>> reforming the education system in a nation in Africa, rather than in
> >>>>> the USSR or Finland) can be based on a conception which isolates a
> >>>>> "system of activity", whilst dozens of different ethnic groups,
> >>>>> NGOs, government(s), trade unions and so on, are all contesting the
> >>>>> aims and benefits of "education." Every person in such a situation
> >>>>> is committed to more than one project, and deploys concepts
> >>>>> (institutionalised projects) frequently at odds with one another.
> >>>>> What is needed is a process whose basic units are (1) units and not
> >>>>> systems, and (2) processes of development, processes in which people
> >>>>> are struggling to realise ideas, processes of formation. And we need
> >>>>> the algebra through which such units interact with one another,
> >>>>> rather than declaring any single such interaction to be an entire
> >>>>> new "unit" - i.e. coupled systems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>> mike cole wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Isn't the trangle a "model, " Andy? A model of the root metaphor.
> >>>>> Still an abstraction... waiting to see if it can rise to the
> >>>>> concrete? Perhaps?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Empirically speaking, what is at odds here? For whom?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Antti, I was directing my question to you and your remarks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In Engestrom's highlky regarded, now out of print, 1987 text
> >>>>> "Learning by Expanding", the famous triangle logo is given as Figure
> >>>>> 2.6, and after a long consideration of "candidates" for "unit of
> >>>>> analysis" he says the following about this
> >>>>> triangle: "The
> >>>>> model of Figure 2.6 may now be compared with the four criteria of a
> >>>>> root model of human activity, set forth earlier in this chapter."
> >>>>> and goes on to list and consider the criteria which are commonly
> >>>>> associated in this current with the notion of "unit of analysis."
> >>>>> (numerous citations are not required). But he never said that the
> >>>>> triangle is a unit of analaysis, and it is not, and cannot be. He
> >>>>> said it is a root model and it is. The root model is a system
> >>>>> concept, not a unit of analysis.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you think it possible that this has been the source of some
> >>>>> confusion?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Antti Rajala wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks Andy for sharing the wikipedia text, and your thoughts about
> >>>>> the issue! The thoughts about unit of analysis were my own
> >>>>> interpretation of the study, and I am not sure if the issue you
> >>>>> raised concerns the original study.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Warm wishes, Antti
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Antti, here is a link to th eWikipedia on "System concept"
> >>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System
> >>>>> Why do Activity Theorists in Engstrom's current of thinking mix up
> >>>>> the idea of a system concept with a unit of analysis?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Antti Rajala wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Greg,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You asked:
> >>>>> "My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals
> >>>>> alone?
> >>>>> Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps
> >>>>> in amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe
> >>>>> there is aconcept for that that is different from "double
> >>>>> stimulation."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at the
> >>>>> individual level but at the collective level as well.
> >>>>> Actually,
> >>>>> the study
> >>>>> of Engeström
> >>>>> and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email gives a
> >>>>> nice example. The study also involves in some respects a similar
> >>>>> situation as the one that you described having taken place with the
> >>>>> workers in Malaysia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory
> >>>>> intervention taking place in a university library. The library as
> >>>>> invited researchers to help them find new forms of work with
> >>>>> research groups. A first stimulus emerges in the course of the
> >>>>> change laboratory intervention, as a member of one of the research
> >>>>> groups that the university library is delivering services says that
> >>>>> they can find these services in the internet without the help of the
> >>>>> library. Thus a problem emerges for the librarians to collectively
> >>>>> produce a service that would be genuinely helpful for the research
> >>>>> groups.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In solving this problem, they organize their collective action with
> >>>>> the help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking
> >>>>> (Engeström, Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have
> >>>>> introduced in the beginning of the change laboratory. In particular,
> >>>>> a new working group, a knot, is formed that starts to work with the
> >>>>> emergent problem of inventing a useful service.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino also
> >>>>> provide an example of this second stimulus, the concept of
> >>>>> knotworking, becoming an initial theoretical generalization that is
> >>>>> reworked and enriched through a process of ascending from abstract
> >>>>> to concrete as the intervention evolves.
> >>>>> Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of
> >>>>> knotworking gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of
> >>>>> the librarians' work at multiple levels of hierarchy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis in
> >>>>> the study is the intersection of several activity systems, the
> >>>>> university libarary and the research groups, In terms of agency, one
> >>>>> can maybe talk about shared transformative agency in which the
> >>>>> subject is not an individual but a collective. (More about shared
> >>>>> transformative agency, see Virkkunen's paper in
> >>>>> http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes, Antti
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM,
> >>>>> <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> forgot to send this to XMCA
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on
> >>>>> 06/06/2013
> >>>>> 10:56AM
> >>>>> -----
> >>>>> To: ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
> >>>>> From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
> >>>>> Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy.
> >>>>> But that leads
> >>>>> to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I believe that answer has yet to be found perhaps?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> eric
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:-----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>> wrote: -----
> >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> >>>>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
> >>>>> From: Andy Blunden
> >>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eric,
> >>>>> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying
> >>>>> two disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the
> >>>>> history of philosophy and the answer is Hegel's
> >>>>> answer: "a
> >>>>> formation of
> >>>>> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Andy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> >>>>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>> wrote:
> >>>>> I believe that
> >>>>> this discussion needs to
> >>>>> involve "unit
> >>>>> of analysis" for
> >>>>> what it is that provides the
> >>>>> mediational method.
> >>>>> What unit of study can properly
> >>>>> encapsulate
> >>>>> that which
> >>>>> is being observed?
> >>>>> Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
> >>>>> Oh my what a great temptest LSV did
> >>>>> let out of
> >>>>> the teapot
> >>>>> eric
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:-----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>> wrote: -----
> >>>>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>"
> >>>>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
> >>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
> >>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
> >>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sure, Greg,
> >>>>> Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
> >>>>> their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a
> >>>>> "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance.
> >>>>> The "double
> >>>>> stimulation" is fine because
> >>>>> introduces a kind of
> >>>>> mediation between a
> >>>>> stimulus and our response to the
> >>>>> stimulus. But,
> >>>>> following Vygotsky's
> >>>>> formulations at that time this new
> >>>>> series of
> >>>>> "stimulus" (a nude, a
> >>>>> word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one.
> >>>>> If you change
> >>>>> you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of
> >>>>> "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure
> >>>>> and has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for
> >>>>> instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled
> >>>>> by the same laws that a conditional reflex...
> >>>>> As in
> >>>>> "Instrumental
> >>>>> method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a
> >>>>> direct stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a
> >>>>> second series of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an
> >>>>> indirect stimulus response relationship, but the relation between S
> >>>>> and X, and X and R remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw
> >>>>> analogies between different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that
> >>>>> we are in transit between different words of signification, and
> >>>>> culture is a human production that involves the "generalization"
> >>>>> from a
> >>>>> world to another,
> >>>>> broader, maybe not exactly more
> >>>>> precise, but
> >>>>> "broader", in my opinion.
> >>>>> I don't know...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional
> >>>>> reflex)
> >>>>> connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In
> >>>>> artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of
> >>>>> a psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme)
> >>>>> instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are
> >>>>> established: A?X
> >>>>> and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural
> >>>>> conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the
> >>>>> brain tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact
> >>>>> of the replacement of one connection A?B by two
> >>>>> connections:
> >>>>> A?X and X?B They
> >>>>> lead to the same result, but by a
> >>>>> different
> >>>>> path. What
> >>>>> is new is the
> >>>>> artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural
> >>>>> process of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active
> >>>>> utilization of the natural properties of brain tissue."
> >>>>> Vygotsky
> >>>>> "The Instumental
> >>>>> Method" (this is 1930)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But already in 1928:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Let us now compare the natural and
> >>>>> cultural
> >>>>> mnemonics
> >>>>> of a child. The
> >>>>> relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
> >>>>> of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative
> >>>>> or conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A
> >>>>> and B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign,
> >>>>> instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX
> >>>>> and BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way.
> >>>>> Each of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
> >>>>> conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB."
> >>>>> Vygotsky (1928)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_develop
> >>>>> ment.htm
> >>>>> See: "AX and BX
> >>>>> is the same kind of
> >>>>> conditional-reflexive process of
> >>>>> connection as AB." --> The same
> >>>>> kind... This
> >>>>> paradigm
> >>>>> will not be the
> >>>>> same in 1933-34...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
> >>>>> older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is "a
> >>>>> time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together"
> >>>>> (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy
> >>>>> of meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was
> >>>>> already present in the older investigations.
> >>>>> Whereas
> >>>>> before
> >>>>> our task was to
> >>>>> demonstrate what "the knot" and
> >>>>> logical memory
> >>>>> have in
> >>>>> common, now our
> >>>>> task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From
> >>>>> our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional
> >>>>> relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciou
> >>>>> sness.htm
> >>>>> And now?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Date:
> >>>>> Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double
> >>>>> Stimulation?
> >>>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>>
> >>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Achilles,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sounded interesting, but I'm not
> >>>>> sure I
> >>>>> followed
> >>>>> you completely. You
> >>>>> say
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
> >>>>> "double
> >>>>>
> >>>>> stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your
> >>>>> message.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you have a few minutes, maybe
> >>>>> you could try
> >>>>> rephrasing?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -greg
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM,
> >>>>> Achilles
> >>>>> Delari
> >>>>> Junior <
> >>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In my undertanding, this is very
> >>>>> broader and
> >>>>> more powerful than
> >>>>>
> >>>>> double
> >>>>>
> >>>>> stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
> >>>>>
> >>>>> way for
> >>>>>
> >>>>> think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> consciousness"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1933-34), for instance. The more
> >>>>> important
> >>>>> will be not the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> similarity
> >>>>> between
> >>>>> a nude and a word, but their
> >>>>> difference, "before was
> >>>>>
> >>>>> forgotten that
> >>>>>
> >>>>> sign had a meaning" and "now" the
> >>>>> meaning must
> >>>>> be take in account.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Double
> >>>>>
> >>>>> stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point
> >>>>>
> >>>>> of view.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Achilles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
> >>>>> From:
> >>>>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>>
> >>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>;
> >>>>> lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>;
> >>>>>
> >>>>> antti.rajala@helsinki.fi <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>>
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
> >>>>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> CC:
> >>>>> Subject: [xmca] Double
> >>>>> Stimulation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wonder if this quote by
> >>>>> Marilyn
> >>>>> Strathern can be productively
> >>>>>
> >>>>> connected
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (not necessarily geneaologically, but
> >>>>> ideologically) to the
> >>>>>
> >>>>> notion of
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "double stimulation" (which I am
> >>>>> just now
> >>>>> trying to figure out):
> >>>>> "Culture consists in the way
> >>>>> people draw
> >>>>> analogies between
> >>>>>
> >>>>> different
> >>>>>
> >>>>> domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -greg
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
> >>>>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>>>> Brigham Young University
> >>>>> Provo, UT 84602
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
> >>>>> Department of Anthropology
> >>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >>>>> Brigham Young University
> >>>>> Provo, UT 84602
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ----
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ----
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ----
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ----
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>>>
> >>>>> __________________________________________
> >>>>> _____
> >>>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> >>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ----
> >>>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> -
> >>>> --
> >>>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> >>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>>
> >>>> __________________________________________
> >>>> _____
> >>>> xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>> __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list
> >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> --
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
> >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>>
> >>> __________________________________________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *Andy Blunden*
> >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
References:
- Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Helena Worthen <helenaworthen@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
- Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- RE: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- RE: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- VS: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Rauno Huttunen <rakahu@utu.fi>
- Re: VS: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- VS: VS: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Rauno Huttunen <rakahu@utu.fi>
- Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
  - From: Martin John Packer <mpacker@uniandes.edu.co>
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