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Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
- To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Engestrom's Finnish Proposal
- From: "Engeström, Yrjö H M" <yrjo.engestrom@helsinki.fi>
- Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:32:42 +0300
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- In-reply-to: <CDE5CF19.18BE6%helenaworthen@gmail.com>
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The paper Eric posted and which makes Helena want to laugh is a draft for a grant proposal from about 10 years back in time. The project was funded by the Academy of Finland and completed in 2006. Its results are summarized in a paper published in the MCA in 2007:
Engeström, Y. (2007). Enriching the theory of expansive learning: Lessons from journeys toward coconfiguration. Mind, Culture, and Activity, 14(1-2), 23-39.
Yrjö Engeström
On Jun 18, 2013, at 7:02 PM, Helena Worthen wrote:
> Eric et al:
>
> I like to read whatever Engestrom material shows up on xmca; he's a
> brilliant and stimulating thinker, but sometimes I have to laugh.
>
> The link Eric posted iactually goes to a proposal, as in "grant proposal,"
> although I'm not sure who was going to fund it. Engestrom is proposing an
> ongoing research project that would take place at three sites, a healthcare
> provider, a bank, and a telecommunications outfit. He wants to study how his
> group, the Change Laboratory, works with these entities.
>
> My problem with his creative approach to research is that he acts as if the
> whole world has moved on to whatever he's studying next. He talks about "the
> historical development of work," "work..transformed from mass production and
> mass customization to co-configuration of customer-intelligent products and
> services with long life cycles", "post-bureaucratic work", 'work as "a
> living, growing networkŠnever finished," etc etc. This may be true of "work"
> as it occurs in the Change Laboratory, but for the vast majority of human
> beings, work has not moved on, is not post-bureaucratic, and does NOT
> involve being set up in a permanent, "never finished" contract with a
> hospital, bank or phone company to reflect on one's own process. Kind of
> like being on a permanent research retainer!
>
> Somewhere along the line Engestrom has lost sight of fact that work is
> significantly related to earning a living, at least for most people. Maybe
> the concept is lost in translation. I suggest that he use a different word,
> however. "Creative exploration, " for example. But not "work"!!
>
> Helena Worthen
>
> From: <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
> Reply-To: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:52 AM
> To: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>
> Here is an paper where Yro discusses the "germ cell".
>
> http://www.edu.helsinki.fi/activity/people/engestro/files/The_Finnish_propos
> al.pdf
>
> thought people might be interested, also rather short
>
> eric
>
> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu wrote: -----
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com
> From: Andy Blunden
> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> Date: 06/18/2013 12:17AM
> Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>
> To the extent that we have a consultant who is invited to resolve
> problems in an institution of some kind, if the impact on that the life
> of that institution can be validly abstracted from the other projects at
> work, such as governments, political or ethnic groups with grievances,
> patients who are campaigning to have a say in their health care,
> governments imposing cost-cutting and computer work-control systems
> intended to take the teachers out of education, and the nurses out of
> health care, etc. ... In other words, to the extent that the idea of a
> "system of actions" or "system of activity" with a neat boundary
> accurately reflects the social situation at issue, then I am sure the
> method of the triangle works fine.
>
> But what about the Egyptian Revolution, when workers (white collar
> public servants and highly exploited factory workers) and
> student-intellectuals all enter into a struggle against the US-backed
> torture-regime of Hosni Mubarak (with a mass of ruraal poor in the
> background), ... without knowing what they are wanting to achieve, not
> necessarily trusting the other parties,...? What about when gay men
> suddenly find themselves not only the target of an unknown deadly
> disease, but being blamed for spreading it to others, and the medical
> scientists want to use them as guinea pigs, they are threatened with
> bring forced to wear the equivalent of a Star of David, ... and yet they
> manage to not only defeat the disease but come out if it having won a
> huge victory agains homophobia and much improved social status. Wht
> about when the asbestos industry is marketing a miracle fibre which is
> still, a decade after it was eventually banned, killing 1000s in a
> horrible slow death, and the trade unions representing the workers are
> hand in glove with their employers, government regulators are being paid
> off and medical scientists (like the ones who told us tobacco is good
> for your health) are spreadig disinformation, ... and yet we got
> asbestos banned. Need I go on?
>
> I don't believe the "system of activity" approach can even get a handle
> on those situations. As you know I am in the process of editing a volume
> of studies using (to one extent or another) the "project" approach, to
> understand these processes, for the purpose of doing things like this.
> It includes idenfiying contradictions in the workings of institutions
> (such as medical science, health care, industrial diseases regulation,
> and so on) but it also deals with complex processes of social change,
> where the participants themselves are only just discovering what it is
> they are fighting for, and multiple projects are in play.
>
> These are the kind of issues I am interested in, so that is why I am
> interested in a theory which can deal with such issues,
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>> I fear this does not help me a whole lot, Andy.
>> Sorry I cannot grasp the method of Goethe properly. I guess Luria
>> probably failed
>> as well. Or maybe he succeeded and I have misunderstood him? Entirely
>> possible.
>>
>> I did not ask what what is at odds. I asked for what the empirical
>> consequences of the the distinctions you are making are. I cannot
>> follow the path to reforming all of the educational system of the USSR
>> or Russia, which, so far as I know, neither
>> Vygotsky nor anyone else associated with Activity Theory every
>> accomplished. Nore have I ever seen claims that they have. (The Finns
>> appear to have done well recently using an approach, the relationship
>> to activity theory I have no knowledge of, but perhaps our Finnish
>> colleagues do).
>>
>> Here is what would help me, and I suspect others on XMCA. Take an
>> already published piece of work that uses the expanded triangle Yrjo
>> proposes in Learning by Expanding. Say, the work on cleaners in the
>> early work. Tell us about the mistaken conclusions that arise because
>> of misunderstandings that confusion of the triangle for "activity" (no
>> modifiers) causes. Suggest how we might improve our
>> understanding. Or tell us why that example works, but some other
>> example (teachers in schools, nurses and doctors in a hospital, etc.)
>> does not.
>>
>> Or suggest an entirely different way of looking at matters so that
>> when we go into
>> classrooms, housing projects, work places, we can more effectively
>> understand what is going on and be of more help to those with whom we
>> work that publishing another article in MCA.
>>
>> I guess I am asking that you rise to the concrete here, keeping the
>> object of analysis constant.
>>
>> My apologies if this seems unreasonable. Perhaps it is approaching
>> senility, but
>> I am failing to track you.
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>> Lost in the words here.
>> mike
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, in Yjro's (1986) words, it is a "root model". (The derivation
>> of it is a beautiful piece of work, too, close to Hegel's early
>> "System of Ethical Life". Deserves to remain in print).
>>
>> But modelling a complex process is not the same as the method of
>> Goethe, Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky. As you know, Mike, in order to
>> understand this approach, which Luria called Romantic Science, I
>> had to go back to its origins c. 1787 when Goethe was doing his
>> Journey in Italy, studying all the plant life, and its variation
>> by altitude, latittude, nearness to the sea, etc., and in
>> conversation with J G Herder, arrived a his conception of
>> Urphaenomen. The Urphaenomen is not a model.
>>
>> It is an abstraction, true. And yes, the understanding of a
>> complex process by the "romantic" method is indeed, the rising to
>> the concrete, the logical-historical reconstruction of the whole
>> process from this abstract germ.
>>
>> As I remarked (somewhere) I find Yrjo's work over the past couple
>> of years, which focuses more on the germ cell than the triangle,
>> closer to what I am trying to do. The germ cell is not a model either.
>>
>> What is at odds here is whether a real, complex situation (such as
>> reforming the education system in a nation in Africa, rather than
>> in the USSR or Finland) can be based on a conception which
>> isolates a "system of activity", whilst dozens of different
>> ethnic groups, NGOs, government(s), trade unions and so on, are
>> all contesting the aims and benefits of "education." Every person
>> in such a situation is committed to more than one project, and
>> deploys concepts (institutionalised projects) frequently at odds
>> with one another. What is needed is a process whose basic units
>> are (1) units and not systems, and (2) processes of development,
>> processes in which people are struggling to realise ideas,
>> processes of formation. And we need the algebra through which such
>> units interact with one another, rather than declaring any single
>> such interaction to be an entire new "unit" - i.e. coupled systems.
>>
>> Andy
>> mike cole wrote:
>>
>> Isn't the trangle a "model, " Andy? A model of the root
>> metaphor. Still an abstraction... waiting to see if it can
>> rise to the concrete? Perhaps?
>>
>> Empirically speaking, what is at odds here? For whom?
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Andy Blunden
>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> Antti, I was directing my question to you and your remarks.
>>
>> In Engestrom's highlky regarded, now out of print, 1987 text
>> "Learning by Expanding", the famous triangle logo is given as
>> Figure 2.6, and after a long consideration of "candidates" for
>> "unit of analysis" he says the following about this
>> triangle: "The
>> model of Figure 2.6 may now be compared with the four
>> criteria of
>> a root model of human activity, set forth earlier in this
>> chapter." and goes on to list and consider the criteria
>> which are
>> commonly associated in this current with the notion of
>> "unit of
>> analysis." (numerous citations are not required). But he never
>> said that the triangle is a unit of analaysis, and it is
>> not, and
>> cannot be. He said it is a root model and it is. The root
>> model is
>> a system concept, not a unit of analysis.
>>
>> Do you think it possible that this has been the source of some
>> confusion?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Antti Rajala wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks Andy for sharing the wikipedia text, and your
>> thoughts
>> about the issue! The thoughts about unit of analysis
>> were my
>> own interpretation of the study, and I am not sure if the
>> issue you raised concerns the original study.
>>
>> Warm wishes, Antti
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Andy Blunden
>> <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>>
>> Antti, here is a link to th eWikipedia on "System
>> concept"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System
>> Why do Activity Theorists in Engstrom's current of
>> thinking mix up
>> the idea of a system concept with a unit of analysis?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> Antti Rajala wrote:
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> You asked:
>> ²My question is getting at where we locate
>> "agency". In
>> individuals alone?
>> Or as possibly being distributed among
>> multiple people and
>> perhaps in
>> amanner that isn't recognizable to the
>> individual. But
>> maybe
>> there is
>> aconcept for that that is different from "double
>> stimulation.²
>>
>> I think that double stimulation can be
>> analyzed not
>> only at
>> the individual
>> level but at the collective level as well.
>> Actually,
>> the study
>> of Engeström
>> and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my
>> earlier email
>> gives a nice
>> example. The study also involves in some
>> respects a
>> similar
>> situation as
>> the one that you described having taken place
>> with the
>> workers
>> in Malaysia.
>>
>> According to my reading, the study describes a
>> change
>> laboratory
>> intervention taking place in a university
>> library. The
>> library
>> as invited
>> researchers to help them find new forms of
>> work with
>> research
>> groups. A
>> first stimulus emerges in the course of the change
>> laboratory
>> intervention,
>> as a member of one of the research groups that the
>> university
>> library is
>> delivering services says that they can find these
>> services in
>> the internet
>> without the help of the library. Thus a problem
>> emerges for
>> the librarians
>> to collectively produce a service that would
>> be genuinely
>> helpful for the
>> research groups.
>>
>> In solving this problem, they organize their
>> collective action
>> with the
>> help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of
>> knotworking
>> (Engeström,
>> Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the
>> researchers have
>> introduced in the
>> beginning of the change laboratory. In
>> particular, a new
>> working group, a
>> knot, is formed that starts to work with the
>> emergent
>> problem
>> of inventing
>> a useful service.
>>
>> What is in my opinion very innovative,
>> Engeström and
>> Sannino
>> also provide
>> an example of this second stimulus, the concept of
>> knotworking, becoming an
>> initial theoretical generalization that is
>> reworked and
>> enriched through a
>> process of ascending from abstract to concrete
>> as the
>> intervention evolves.
>> Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the
>> concept of
>> knotworking
>> gives rise to many concrete, practical
>> applications of the
>> librarians' work
>> at multiple levels of hierarchy.
>>
>> As for the unit of analysis, I think that the
>> unit of
>> analysis
>> in the study
>> is the intersection of several activity
>> systems, the
>> university libarary
>> and the research groups, In terms of agency,
>> one can maybe
>> talk about
>> shared transformative agency in which the
>> subject is
>> not an
>> individual but
>> a collective. (More about shared transformative
>> agency, see
>> Virkkunen¹s
>> paper in
>> http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43)
>>
>> Best wishes, Antti
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM,
>> <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>>> wrote:
>>
>> forgot to send this to XMCA
>>
>> -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on
>> 06/06/2013
>> 10:56AM
>> -----
>> To: ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>> From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
>> Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> True true, the history of philosophy does lead
>> there Andy.
>> But that leads
>> to my trepidations regarding ideology
>> lacking in
>> practice.
>>
>> What substance within conscious formation is
>> measurable?
>>
>> I believe that answer has yet to be found
>> perhaps?
>>
>> eric
>>
>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>> wrote: -----
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>> From: Andy Blunden
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> Eric,
>> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian
>> dilemma, of
>> unifying two
>> disparate abstractions, you determine the
>> answer
>> as from
>> the history of
>> philosophy and the answer is Hegel's
>> answer: "a
>> formation of
>> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
>> <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>>> wrote:
>> I believe that
>> this discussion needs to
>> involve "unit
>> of analysis" for
>> what it is that provides the
>> mediational method.
>> What unit of study can properly
>> encapsulate
>> that which
>> is being observed?
>> Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
>> Oh my what a great temptest LSV did
>> let out of
>> the teapot
>> eric
>>
>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>> wrote: -----
>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>"
>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>>
>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>
>> Sure, Greg,
>> Well, seems to me that "draw analogies
>> between
>> different domains of
>> their worlds" is closer to "meaning
>> construction" than
>> to choice a
>> "stimulus medium" to help memory
>> tasks, for
>> instance.
>> The "double
>> stimulation" is fine because
>> introduces a kind of
>> mediation between a
>> stimulus and our response to the
>> stimulus. But,
>> following Vygotsky's
>> formulations at that time this new
>> series of
>> "stimulus" (a nude, a
>> word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a
>> conditioned one.
>> If you change
>> you paradigm to the proposition that
>> all sign
>> implies
>> any kind of
>> "generalization process" (meaning)
>> that differs in
>> their structure and
>> has a genetic construction (see the
>> studies about
>> concepts, for
>> instance), a sign could not be only a
>> second
>> series of
>> stimuli ruled
>> by the same laws that a conditional
>> reflex...
>> As in
>> "Instrumental
>> method": S-------X-------R. Where the
>> relation
>> S---------R is a direct
>> stimulus response relationship, but
>> when you
>> introduce
>> a second series
>> of stimulus "X" (double stimulation)
>> you have an
>> indirect stimulus
>> response relationship, but the relation
>> between S and
>> X, and X and R
>> remain a conditioned reflex
>> relationship... "Draw
>> analogies between
>> different domains of our worlds" seem
>> to mean
>> that we
>> are in transit
>> between different words of
>> signification, and
>> culture
>> is a human
>> production that involves the
>> "generalization"
>> from a
>> world to another,
>> broader, maybe not exactly more
>> precise, but
>> "broader", in my opinion.
>> I don't know...
>>
>>
>> "In natural memory a direct associative
>> (conditional
>> reflex)
>> connection A?B is established between two
>> stimuli A
>> and B. In
>> artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the
>> same
>> impression, by means of a
>> psychological tool X (a knot in a
>> handkerchief, a
>> mnemonic scheme)
>> instead of the direct connection A?B
>> two new
>> ones are
>> established: A?X
>> and X?B Just like the connection A?B
>> each of
>> them is a
>> natural
>> conditional reflex process,
>> determined, by the
>> properties of the brain
>> tissue. What is new, artificial, and
>> instrumental is
>> the fact of the
>> replacement of one connection A?B by two
>> connections:
>> A?X and X?B They
>> lead to the same result, but by a
>> different
>> path. What
>> is new is the
>> artificial direction which the instrument
>> gives to the
>> natural process
>> of establishing a conditional connection,
>> i.e., the
>> active utilization
>> of the natural properties of brain
>> tissue."
>> Vygotsky
>> "The Instumental
>> Method" (this is 1930)
>>
>> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm
>>
>> But already in 1928:
>>
>> "Let us now compare the natural and
>> cultural
>> mnemonics
>> of a child. The
>> relation between the two forms can be
>> graphically
>> expressed by means
>> of a triangle: in case of natural
>> memorization a
>> direct associative or
>> conditional reflexive connection is set up
>> between two
>> points, A and
>> B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization,
>> utilizing
>> some sign,
>> instead of one associative connection
>> AB, the
>> others
>> are set up AX and
>> BX, which bring us to the same result,
>> but in a
>> roundabout way. Each
>> of these connections AX and BX is the
>> same kind of
>> conditional-reflexive process of
>> connection as
>> AB."
>> Vygotsky (1928)
>>
>>
>>
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm
>> See: "AX and BX
>> is the same kind of
>> conditional-reflexive process of
>> connection as AB." --> The same
>> kind... This
>> paradigm
>> will not be the
>> same in 1933-34...
>>
>> "(Introduction: the importance of the
>> sign;
>> its social
>> meaning). In
>> older works we ignored that the sign has
>> meaning. <
>> But there is ³a
>> time to cast away stones, and a time
>> to gather
>> stones
>> together²
>> (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the
>> principle of
>> the constancy of
>> meaning, we discounted meaning. But
>> the problem of
>> meaning was already
>> present in the older investigations.
>> Whereas
>> before
>> our task was to
>> demonstrate what ³the knot² and
>> logical memory
>> have in
>> common, now our
>> task is to demonstrate the difference
>> that exists
>> between them.From
>> our works it follows that the sign
>> changes the
>> interfunctional
>> relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
>>
>>
>>
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm
>> And now?
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Achilles.
>>
>> Date:
>> Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double
>> Stimulation?
>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>>
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>>
>> Achilles,
>>
>> Sounded interesting, but I'm not
>> sure I
>> followed
>> you completely. You
>> say
>> that
>> Strathern's quote seems like it has a
>> broader
>> application that
>> "double
>>
>> stimulation", but I could use some help
>> with the
>> rest of your message.
>>
>> If you have a few minutes, maybe
>> you could try
>> rephrasing?
>>
>> -greg
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM,
>> Achilles
>> Delari
>> Junior <
>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>
>>
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com
>> <mailto:achilles_delari@hotmail.com>>>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In my undertanding, this is very
>> broader and
>> more powerful than
>>
>> double
>>
>> stimulation... Double stimulation could be
>> overcoming with another
>>
>> way for
>>
>> think signs than "medium stimulus" -
>> See "The
>> problem of
>>
>> consciousness"
>>
>> (1933-34), for instance. The more
>> important
>> will be not the
>>
>> similarity
>> between
>> a nude and a word, but their
>> difference, "before was
>>
>> forgotten that
>>
>> sign had a meaning" and "now" the
>> meaning must
>> be take in account.
>>
>> Double
>>
>> stimulation, in my understanding, do not
>> resists to this new point
>>
>> of view.
>>
>> Achilles.
>>
>>
>> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
>> From:
>> greg.a.thompson@gmail.com <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>
>>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>> <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>>
>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>;
>> lchcmike@gmail.com
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>>;
>>
>> antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>>
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>> <mailto:antti.rajala@helsinki.fi>>>
>>
>> CC:
>> Subject: [xmca] Double
>> Stimulation?
>>
>> I wonder if this quote by
>> Marilyn
>> Strathern can be productively
>>
>> connected
>>
>> (not necessarily geneaologically, but
>> ideologically) to the
>>
>> notion of
>>
>> "double stimulation" (which I am
>> just now
>> trying to figure out):
>> "Culture consists in the way
>> people draw
>> analogies between
>>
>> different
>>
>> domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
>>
>> -greg
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>>
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>> Department of Anthropology
>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> Brigham Young University
>> Provo, UT 84602
>>
>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>
>> __________________________________________
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> __________________________________________
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>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> --
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>
>> __________________________________________
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>> __________________________________________
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>
>> __________________________________________
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>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>>
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>
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>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
> <http://home.mira.net/~andy/> >
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>
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