Re: [xmca] self-regulation

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Francine,
You wrote:
But it could bethe case that lower mental functions are subsumed under the
higher mental functions and continue to operate at an unconscious level of
processing in the brain.Heinz Werner's spiral model. (My husband and I call
our approach Synergistic Psychology).

This phrase *synergistic psychology* invites further questions, as
dialogue, not disputes.
I would like to quote from an article by Christiane Chauvire who is
exploring Wittgenstein's debt to Dewey, especially his book *experience and
Nature* The article is titled "Experience and Nature: Wittgenstein Reader
of Dewey"
The article is open source and is in the Euopean Journal of Pragmatism and
American Philosophy"

Here is the quote from page 84 0f the article.
"The idea of regularity is central for these two authors [Dewey and
Wittgenstein]. The return of purely qualitative PRIMARY experience (which
cannot, nevertheless, afford to restore the primary naivety, but only a
second one) is the simple medicine against the gaps introduced by
philosophy into the CONTINUITY of things related in experience, THIS FLUENT
STUFF which is PRIOR to the distinction between objective and subjective:
philosophy breaks its original unity, while it believes to capture it by
means of such artificial theoretical dualisms as the dualism between matter
and mind.....These criticisms are again taken up by Wittgenstein in his
lectures in the beginnings of the 1930's about such propositional attitudes
as expectation and desire: .... In particular, the separation between the
material and the mental leads the philosopher to "posit" - as Quine would
have said - a FANTOMATIC entity, exclusive and private: the mind, to which
he assigns vague and mysterious properties.... On the contrary, we should
bring the mind back into nature - without *reducing* it to nature - and
restore the previous continuity of PRIMARY EXPERIENCE.

Francine, I am not sure if your exploration of *primary experience* within
synergistic psychology has resemblance to Wittgenstein's and Dewey's
*primary experience*?
If they do share a family resemblance, then figurative and anological
reasoning and thinking which involves imaginal realms may continue to be
central to entering this primary experience AS REAL AND ACTUAL regulative
patterns.
I am in way over my head, and am expressing *intuitive* understandings. I
was wondering if Dewey and Wittgenstein are exploring the same figurative
domains you are exploring in your article??

Larry



On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:30 PM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>wrote:

> Message from Francine:
> Larry, Thank you for the positive feedback in addition to sharing your own
> insights. Before being interested in Vygotsky's writingsI was advancing a
> neo-Freudian perspectice (the two go together quite well).Vygotsky's
> writings might be understood as positing that either elementarymental
> functions (lower mental functions that are not consciously directedby means
> of inner speech) or  higher mental functions are used. But it could bethe
> case that lower mental functions are subsumed under the higher mental
> functionsand continue to operate at an unconscious level of processing in
> the brain.Heinz Werner's spiral model. (My husband and I call our approach
> Synergistic Psychology).
> By the way, I will share your feedback with my husband Larry.I am the one
> who has the patience to debate oppositional parties (who are sometimes just
> being obnoxious). Guys who grew up on the Southside of Chicagohave a
> quicker rebuttal to people who are being disingenuous.
>
> > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:45:46 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Francine,
> > Your article is fascinating.
> > I am intrigued by your description of *combinatory* figurative
> resemblance.
> > On page 23 you discuss *primary process* AS *lower* psychological
> functions.
> > I wonder if this primary process AS imaginal *realms* are implicated in
> all
> > types of thinking?? Including the *highest* psychological functions.
> > I also wonder how we distinguish *imaginal realms* from *fantasy realms*?
> > Mickey mouse the talking mouse is fantasy.
> > The imaginal realms are ways to grasp the real and the actual. You
> > mentioned Bateson and his notion of *regulative* patterns.
> > Envisioning these regulative patterns may involve *primary* figurative or
> > analogical reasoning and thinking and reflection may be *secondary* or
> > derivative FROM these *imaginal realms* (not fanciful or literal realms)
> >
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:13 AM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Message from Francine,
> > > Larry, I will follow-up on the points you have made ( I find them
> > > interesting). I just haven't had time, yet.Thank you.
> > > > Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 09:12:16 -0700
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >
> > > > Greg, Francine,
> > > >
> > > > Your question about *resemblance* of gestures and icons as tied to
> the
> > > > local situation, whereas words can be beyond the local situation is
> a way
> > > > of asking the question which Elena Cufferi is exploring.
> > > > Elena referenced Merleau Ponty's work and his concepts of
> *sedimentation*
> > > > and *spontaneous* in her exploring the *meaning* of gestures.
> > > > Exploring gesture within the deaf community is clearly entering
> > > *language*
> > > > and *sedimentation* AS cultural historical and not merely
> spontaneous.
> > > > Elena's question is much more radical. She is asking if gesture for
> a 12
> > > > month old can be used for guided/mediated self referencing within the
> > > > cultural historical world as *self* regulation that is extra local,
> and
> > > > therefore sedimented.
> > > > In other words *Gestures* in their own* essence* have BOTH qualities
> of
> > > > sedimentation AND qualities of spontaneity.
> > > > Our bodies are *communicating with our *self* and participating
> within
> > > life
> > > > worlds AS sedimented gestures at 12 months and may be primordial for
> > > > developing language with which it shares *resemblance*??
> > > >
> > > > The developmental stage of *private speech* as a visible expression
> of
> > > > *self* regulation of actions without reference to another person can
> then
> > > > be interpreted AS another developmental skill  within gestural
> > > expressions
> > > > as developing BOTH sedimented and spontaneous *actions* within
> cultural
> > > > historical worlds?
> > > >
> > > > This then returns us to questions of imaginal play as using *props*
> or
> > > > *pivots* AS ways of *referencing* events.
> > > > The question of *resemblance* (as structure, as function) within
> PLAY may
> > > > also be expressing BOTH sedimented (guided, mediated) *self*
> regulation
> > > > which is analogical (carrying over or carrying through).
> > > >
> > > > This question of *identity* (a equals b) and its relation to
> > > *resemblance*
> > > > (as relation) ) is a question I see being asked in the inquiries of
> > > other,
> > > > co and self regulation and executive functioning.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Greg Thompson
> > > > <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Francine,
> > > > > Do you think that Vygotsky was right in positing that:
> > > > > "the spoken word has a unique function in self-regulation because
> it
> > > can be
> > > > > totally separate from the referent, whereas gestures and
> > > iconic-pictorial
> > > > > illustrations bear some element of resemblance."
> > > > > Most particularly, do you think that ASL is purely gestural and
> > > > > iconic-pictorial?
> > > > > Makes me wonder what kind of sign language Vygotsky would have been
> > > > > studying.
> > > > > Home sign?
> > > > > Maria Coppolla (sp?), among others, has done some really great
> work on
> > > > > Nicaraguan Sign Language. The upshot of it is that when sign
> language
> > > > > develops in a community, signs develop a fully *symbolic* capacity
> (cf.
> > > > > Peirce on "symbol") that does this work of being totally separate
> from
> > > the
> > > > > referent ("arbitrary", we might say, to use Saussurean
> terminology).
> > > > >
> > > > > But, importantly, you only get this when you have a numerous and
> dense
> > > > > community of deaf people who can develop such arbitrary signs (and
> > > this is
> > > > > a fascinating population to think about language genesis with! And
> > > guess
> > > > > where these numerous and dense communities have typically been
> found:
> > > > > Schools!). Without a significantly large and dense community of
> deaf
> > > > > people, deaf are stuck making up signs for hearing people who rely
> too
> > > > > heavily on spoken word to be able to imagine that one can do the
> same
> > > thing
> > > > > with gestures.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > -greg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 1:05 PM, larry smolucha <
> lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Message from Francine:
> > > > > > Larry,
> > > > > > You might find something useful in a 1992 book edited by Diaz and
> > > > > > Berktitled Private Speech (Erlbaum) - I wrote Chapter 5 on the
> Social
> > > > > > Originsof Private Speech in pretend Play.
> > > > > > Bodrova and Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschools have been
> > > recocognized
> > > > > > fortheir success in using verbally guided pretend play to develop
> > > > > > self-regulation.They are currently doing a joint research project
> > > with
> > > > > > University of Chicago researchers.Adele Diamond, a
> > > neuropsychologist, has
> > > > > > documented neurological correlatesas self-regulation developed in
> > > Tool of
> > > > > > the Mind Preschoolers.
> > > > > > In regard to the use of gesture for self-regulation as early as
> > > infancy:A
> > > > > > few years ago I was giving my usual lecture on how Vygotsky
> > > > > > transitionedfrom teaching the deaf to researching the role of
> speech
> > > in
> > > > > > self-regulation.I said that Vygotsky realized that the teaching
> of
> > > sign
> > > > > > language to the deafwas only done to teach communication with
> > > others, but
> > > > > > that speech in the hearinghad two functions 'communication and
> > > > > > self-regulation.' A related question is how tohelp the deaf to
> use
> > > sign
> > > > > > language for self-regulation. Well, there happended to bea deaf
> > > woman in
> > > > > > the class with another woman who would sign my lectures to her.
> It
> > > was a
> > > > > > moment of truth, I turned to them and asked if the deaf woman
> ever
> > > signs
> > > > > to
> > > > > > herself to direct her own thoughts - her answer was yes, even in
> her
> > > > > dreams.
> > > > > > Never-the-less, Vygotsky is quite clear that the spoken word has
> a
> > > unique
> > > > > > functionin self-regulation because it can be totally separate
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > referent, whereasgestures and iconic-pictorial illustrations bear
> > > some
> > > > > > element of resemblance.
> > > > > > In regard to the Vancouver school's goal of teaching
> self-regulatory
> > > > > > private speech,I can think of simple ways to help the teachers
> how to
> > > > > >  identify the types of self-regulatoryspeech that students at
> > > different
> > > > > > grade levels need  per subject area. [I just revieweda journal
> > > article
> > > > > from
> > > > > > the Zoology department at a University in New Zealand thatwas
> > > looking at
> > > > > > verbal self-regulation in graduate students.]
> > > > > > Meichenbaum's  work on Cognitive-Behavioral Modification  was
> > > inspred by
> > > > > > Vygotskyand Luria's writings, so basic steps in using private
> speech
> > > to
> > > > > > focus attentioncan be found in that area of research and therapy
> > > > > (beginning
> > > > > > in the 1960's).
> > > > > > I get the sense that Vygotskian researchers have become estranged
> > > from
> > > > > one
> > > > > > another(and from the associated research literatures) because of
> > > > > artificial
> > > > > > theoretical boundariesthat have been drawn.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:06:55 -0700
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > analysis".
> > > > > Can
> > > > > > you  help me?
> > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Francine
> > > > > > > Thanks for the reference to Winsler's edited book, "Private
> Speech,
> > > > > > > Executive Function".
> > > > > > > I have read the excerpt on Google books and two topics were
> > > intriguing.
> > > > > > > The notion of *self-reflection* in 12 month old infants who
> were
> > > > > > privately
> > > > > > > self-regulating THROUGH gesture previously modeled by adults.
> > > > > > > The 2nd intriguing question is that literature may profoundly
> > > influence
> > > > > > > (constitute) a distinct TYPE of self-regulation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would appreciate if you could email some relevant literature
> on
> > > > > > > developing self regulation through private speech.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you send to
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > lplarry@live.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would be grateful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Francine, the concept of *self-regulation* and
> *social-emotional
> > > > > > learning*
> > > > > > > is becoming a central focus in public schooling and in the
> > > Vancouver
> > > > > > school
> > > > > > > system has been highlighted as a central goal that all teachers
> > > must
> > > > > > > *teach*.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > THIS topic of *private speech* I see as a fulcrum or pivot
> around
> > > which
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > enter dialogue at the school level.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for your generous offer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:05 AM, larry smolucha <
> > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Message from Francine,
> > > > > > > > We had to surrender copyright to the publisher,which is the
> case
> > > for
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > academic books and journals.Since the book was just
> published, I
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > think they would let the paperbe posted on-line just yet.
> > > > > > > > But if you send me  your private e-mail address, I can e-mail
> > > copies
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > similarpapers.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br
> > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > analysis".
> > > > > Can
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > >      help    me?
> > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:05:56 -0300
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Do you can send the paper Smolucha, L. and Smolucha, F.
> (2012)
> > > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > > > > Theory of Creativity inContemporary Perspectives on
> Research in
> > > > > > > > Creativity
> > > > > > > > > in Early Childhood Education(Information Age Publishing,
> > > pp.63-88)
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > xmca?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Joao
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Mensagem original-----
> > > > > > > > > De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > > > Em
> > > > > > > > nome
> > > > > > > > > de larry smolucha
> > > > > > > > > Enviada em: terça-feira, 23 de abril de 2013 07:42
> > > > > > > > > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > > > Assunto: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > analysis". Can
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > > > > > Achilles,
> > > > > > > > > The most direct application of Vygotsky is to observe (and
> > > > > document)
> > > > > > > > howthe
> > > > > > > > > verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person is
> internalized
> > > > > > assilent
> > > > > > > > > self-guiding inner speech. This is done through discourse
> > > > > > > > analysis.Sometimes
> > > > > > > > > there is an intermediate step where the learner speaks
> parts of
> > > > > > theverbal
> > > > > > > > > guidance outloud to him(her)self ( Social Speech - Private
> > > Speech
> > > > > > -Inner
> > > > > > > > > Speech).[Note Vygotsky used the term egocentric speech
> instead
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > contemporary term private speech]. It would be great to use
> > > neural
> > > > > > > > imaging
> > > > > > > > > techniques to documenthow the cortical functions of the
> > > prefrontal
> > > > > > > > cortices
> > > > > > > > > change as the executivefunction emerges as the self-guiding
> > > speech
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > employed and internalized.
> > > > > > > > > Two excellent books that deal with this process are Private
> > > Speech,
> > > > > > > > > Executive Functioning, and the Development of
> > > VerbalSelf-Regulation
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > Winsler, A,. et. al. ( Cambridge, 2009) The Prefrontal
> Cortex
> > > by
> > > > > > Joaquin
> > > > > > > > > Fuster  (Academic Press, 2009).[Pages 369-371 discuss the
> > > > > > development of
> > > > > > > > > creativity as prefrontal self-regulationof imagination with
> > > direct
> > > > > > > > reference
> > > > > > > > > to the work of both Vygotsky and Luria. Thisis consistent
> with
> > > my
> > > > > > > > > interpretation of Vygotsky's theory of creativity -
> > >  seeSmolucha,
> > > > > L.
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > Smolucha, F. (2012) Vygotsky's Theory of Creativity
> > > inContemporary
> > > > > > > > > Perspectives on Research in Creativity in Early Childhood
> > > > > > > > > Education(Information Age Publishing, pp.63-88)] Hope this
> was
> > > of
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 04:28:38 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> analysis".
> > > Can
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Please, I understand that I have a major methodological
> > > problem
> > > > > in
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > nearest research project: "how to understand human
> making-sense
> > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I
> had
> > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > Vygotsky's claim that "“Semiotic [and/or "semantic" =
> > > semicheskyj]
> > > > > > > > analysis
> > > > > > > > > is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic
> and
> > > > > > semantic
> > > > > > > > > structure of consciousness.” (see
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.ht
> > > > > > > > > m). But it is not so clear how to proceed
> "Semiotic/semantic
> > > > > > analysis".
> > > > > > > > > Then, if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my
> mind
> > > about
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to do*
> such
> > > kind
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is nobody
> working
> > > with
> > > > > > > > > something in this direction, then I have no local
> resources to
> > > ask
> > > > > > for...
> > > > > > > > > Forgive me about the naive character of the question, but I
> > > really
> > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > learn about.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Achilles from Brazil.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > __________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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