RE: [xmca] self-regulation

[larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>]

Larry,
Wittgenstein and Dewey seem to be thinking along similar lines to the approach Larryand I have - I have to give it more thought and do some reading. 
In regard to the term synergistic - it allows for a synthesis of more than two elements or systems, which is a limitation of Dialectical Psychology (Klaus Riegel'sbook  Dialectical Psychology was still awesome).

> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:49:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> 
> Francine,
> You wrote:
> But it could bethe case that lower mental functions are subsumed under the
> higher mental functions and continue to operate at an unconscious level of
> processing in the brain.Heinz Werner's spiral model. (My husband and I call
> our approach Synergistic Psychology).
> 
> This phrase *synergistic psychology* invites further questions, as
> dialogue, not disputes.
> I would like to quote from an article by Christiane Chauvire who is
> exploring Wittgenstein's debt to Dewey, especially his book *experience and
> Nature* The article is titled "Experience and Nature: Wittgenstein Reader
> of Dewey"
> The article is open source and is in the Euopean Journal of Pragmatism and
> American Philosophy"
> 
> Here is the quote from page 84 0f the article.
> "The idea of regularity is central for these two authors [Dewey and
> Wittgenstein]. The return of purely qualitative PRIMARY experience (which
> cannot, nevertheless, afford to restore the primary naivety, but only a
> second one) is the simple medicine against the gaps introduced by
> philosophy into the CONTINUITY of things related in experience, THIS FLUENT
> STUFF which is PRIOR to the distinction between objective and subjective:
> philosophy breaks its original unity, while it believes to capture it by
> means of such artificial theoretical dualisms as the dualism between matter
> and mind.....These criticisms are again taken up by Wittgenstein in his
> lectures in the beginnings of the 1930's about such propositional attitudes
> as expectation and desire: .... In particular, the separation between the
> material and the mental leads the philosopher to "posit" - as Quine would
> have said - a FANTOMATIC entity, exclusive and private: the mind, to which
> he assigns vague and mysterious properties.... On the contrary, we should
> bring the mind back into nature - without *reducing* it to nature - and
> restore the previous continuity of PRIMARY EXPERIENCE.
> 
> Francine, I am not sure if your exploration of *primary experience* within
> synergistic psychology has resemblance to Wittgenstein's and Dewey's
> *primary experience*?
> If they do share a family resemblance, then figurative and anological
> reasoning and thinking which involves imaginal realms may continue to be
> central to entering this primary experience AS REAL AND ACTUAL regulative
> patterns.
> I am in way over my head, and am expressing *intuitive* understandings. I
> was wondering if Dewey and Wittgenstein are exploring the same figurative
> domains you are exploring in your article??
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 12:30 PM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Message from Francine:
> > Larry, Thank you for the positive feedback in addition to sharing your own
> > insights. Before being interested in Vygotsky's writingsI was advancing a
> > neo-Freudian perspectice (the two go together quite well).Vygotsky's
> > writings might be understood as positing that either elementarymental
> > functions (lower mental functions that are not consciously directedby means
> > of inner speech) or  higher mental functions are used. But it could bethe
> > case that lower mental functions are subsumed under the higher mental
> > functionsand continue to operate at an unconscious level of processing in
> > the brain.Heinz Werner's spiral model. (My husband and I call our approach
> > Synergistic Psychology).
> > By the way, I will share your feedback with my husband Larry.I am the one
> > who has the patience to debate oppositional parties (who are sometimes just
> > being obnoxious). Guys who grew up on the Southside of Chicagohave a
> > quicker rebuttal to people who are being disingenuous.
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 10:45:46 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > Francine,
> > > Your article is fascinating.
> > > I am intrigued by your description of *combinatory* figurative
> > resemblance.
> > > On page 23 you discuss *primary process* AS *lower* psychological
> > functions.
> > > I wonder if this primary process AS imaginal *realms* are implicated in
> > all
> > > types of thinking?? Including the *highest* psychological functions.
> > > I also wonder how we distinguish *imaginal realms* from *fantasy realms*?
> > > Mickey mouse the talking mouse is fantasy.
> > > The imaginal realms are ways to grasp the real and the actual. You
> > > mentioned Bateson and his notion of *regulative* patterns.
> > > Envisioning these regulative patterns may involve *primary* figurative or
> > > analogical reasoning and thinking and reflection may be *secondary* or
> > > derivative FROM these *imaginal realms* (not fanciful or literal realms)
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:13 AM, larry smolucha <lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Message from Francine,
> > > > Larry, I will follow-up on the points you have made ( I find them
> > > > interesting). I just haven't had time, yet.Thank you.
> > > > > Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 09:12:16 -0700
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] self-regulation
> > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >
> > > > > Greg, Francine,
> > > > >
> > > > > Your question about *resemblance* of gestures and icons as tied to
> > the
> > > > > local situation, whereas words can be beyond the local situation is
> > a way
> > > > > of asking the question which Elena Cufferi is exploring.
> > > > > Elena referenced Merleau Ponty's work and his concepts of
> > *sedimentation*
> > > > > and *spontaneous* in her exploring the *meaning* of gestures.
> > > > > Exploring gesture within the deaf community is clearly entering
> > > > *language*
> > > > > and *sedimentation* AS cultural historical and not merely
> > spontaneous.
> > > > > Elena's question is much more radical. She is asking if gesture for
> > a 12
> > > > > month old can be used for guided/mediated self referencing within the
> > > > > cultural historical world as *self* regulation that is extra local,
> > and
> > > > > therefore sedimented.
> > > > > In other words *Gestures* in their own* essence* have BOTH qualities
> > of
> > > > > sedimentation AND qualities of spontaneity.
> > > > > Our bodies are *communicating with our *self* and participating
> > within
> > > > life
> > > > > worlds AS sedimented gestures at 12 months and may be primordial for
> > > > > developing language with which it shares *resemblance*??
> > > > >
> > > > > The developmental stage of *private speech* as a visible expression
> > of
> > > > > *self* regulation of actions without reference to another person can
> > then
> > > > > be interpreted AS another developmental skill  within gestural
> > > > expressions
> > > > > as developing BOTH sedimented and spontaneous *actions* within
> > cultural
> > > > > historical worlds?
> > > > >
> > > > > This then returns us to questions of imaginal play as using *props*
> > or
> > > > > *pivots* AS ways of *referencing* events.
> > > > > The question of *resemblance* (as structure, as function) within
> > PLAY may
> > > > > also be expressing BOTH sedimented (guided, mediated) *self*
> > regulation
> > > > > which is analogical (carrying over or carrying through).
> > > > >
> > > > > This question of *identity* (a equals b) and its relation to
> > > > *resemblance*
> > > > > (as relation) ) is a question I see being asked in the inquiries of
> > > > other,
> > > > > co and self regulation and executive functioning.
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Greg Thompson
> > > > > <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Francine,
> > > > > > Do you think that Vygotsky was right in positing that:
> > > > > > "the spoken word has a unique function in self-regulation because
> > it
> > > > can be
> > > > > > totally separate from the referent, whereas gestures and
> > > > iconic-pictorial
> > > > > > illustrations bear some element of resemblance."
> > > > > > Most particularly, do you think that ASL is purely gestural and
> > > > > > iconic-pictorial?
> > > > > > Makes me wonder what kind of sign language Vygotsky would have been
> > > > > > studying.
> > > > > > Home sign?
> > > > > > Maria Coppolla (sp?), among others, has done some really great
> > work on
> > > > > > Nicaraguan Sign Language. The upshot of it is that when sign
> > language
> > > > > > develops in a community, signs develop a fully *symbolic* capacity
> > (cf.
> > > > > > Peirce on "symbol") that does this work of being totally separate
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > referent ("arbitrary", we might say, to use Saussurean
> > terminology).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But, importantly, you only get this when you have a numerous and
> > dense
> > > > > > community of deaf people who can develop such arbitrary signs (and
> > > > this is
> > > > > > a fascinating population to think about language genesis with! And
> > > > guess
> > > > > > where these numerous and dense communities have typically been
> > found:
> > > > > > Schools!). Without a significantly large and dense community of
> > deaf
> > > > > > people, deaf are stuck making up signs for hearing people who rely
> > too
> > > > > > heavily on spoken word to be able to imagine that one can do the
> > same
> > > > thing
> > > > > > with gestures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > -greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 1:05 PM, larry smolucha <
> > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Message from Francine:
> > > > > > > Larry,
> > > > > > > You might find something useful in a 1992 book edited by Diaz and
> > > > > > > Berktitled Private Speech (Erlbaum) - I wrote Chapter 5 on the
> > Social
> > > > > > > Originsof Private Speech in pretend Play.
> > > > > > > Bodrova and Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschools have been
> > > > recocognized
> > > > > > > fortheir success in using verbally guided pretend play to develop
> > > > > > > self-regulation.They are currently doing a joint research project
> > > > with
> > > > > > > University of Chicago researchers.Adele Diamond, a
> > > > neuropsychologist, has
> > > > > > > documented neurological correlatesas self-regulation developed in
> > > > Tool of
> > > > > > > the Mind Preschoolers.
> > > > > > > In regard to the use of gesture for self-regulation as early as
> > > > infancy:A
> > > > > > > few years ago I was giving my usual lecture on how Vygotsky
> > > > > > > transitionedfrom teaching the deaf to researching the role of
> > speech
> > > > in
> > > > > > > self-regulation.I said that Vygotsky realized that the teaching
> > of
> > > > sign
> > > > > > > language to the deafwas only done to teach communication with
> > > > others, but
> > > > > > > that speech in the hearinghad two functions 'communication and
> > > > > > > self-regulation.' A related question is how tohelp the deaf to
> > use
> > > > sign
> > > > > > > language for self-regulation. Well, there happended to bea deaf
> > > > woman in
> > > > > > > the class with another woman who would sign my lectures to her.
> > It
> > > > was a
> > > > > > > moment of truth, I turned to them and asked if the deaf woman
> > ever
> > > > signs
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > herself to direct her own thoughts - her answer was yes, even in
> > her
> > > > > > dreams.
> > > > > > > Never-the-less, Vygotsky is quite clear that the spoken word has
> > a
> > > > unique
> > > > > > > functionin self-regulation because it can be totally separate
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > referent, whereasgestures and iconic-pictorial illustrations bear
> > > > some
> > > > > > > element of resemblance.
> > > > > > > In regard to the Vancouver school's goal of teaching
> > self-regulatory
> > > > > > > private speech,I can think of simple ways to help the teachers
> > how to
> > > > > > >  identify the types of self-regulatoryspeech that students at
> > > > different
> > > > > > > grade levels need  per subject area. [I just revieweda journal
> > > > article
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > the Zoology department at a University in New Zealand thatwas
> > > > looking at
> > > > > > > verbal self-regulation in graduate students.]
> > > > > > > Meichenbaum's  work on Cognitive-Behavioral Modification  was
> > > > inspred by
> > > > > > > Vygotskyand Luria's writings, so basic steps in using private
> > speech
> > > > to
> > > > > > > focus attentioncan be found in that area of research and therapy
> > > > > > (beginning
> > > > > > > in the 1960's).
> > > > > > > I get the sense that Vygotskian researchers have become estranged
> > > > from
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > > another(and from the associated research literatures) because of
> > > > > > artificial
> > > > > > > theoretical boundariesthat have been drawn.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:06:55 -0700
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > > analysis".
> > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > you  help me?
> > > > > > > > From: lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Francine
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the reference to Winsler's edited book, "Private
> > Speech,
> > > > > > > > Executive Function".
> > > > > > > > I have read the excerpt on Google books and two topics were
> > > > intriguing.
> > > > > > > > The notion of *self-reflection* in 12 month old infants who
> > were
> > > > > > > privately
> > > > > > > > self-regulating THROUGH gesture previously modeled by adults.
> > > > > > > > The 2nd intriguing question is that literature may profoundly
> > > > influence
> > > > > > > > (constitute) a distinct TYPE of self-regulation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would appreciate if you could email some relevant literature
> > on
> > > > > > > > developing self regulation through private speech.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you send to
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > lplarry@live.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would be grateful.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Francine, the concept of *self-regulation* and
> > *social-emotional
> > > > > > > learning*
> > > > > > > > is becoming a central focus in public schooling and in the
> > > > Vancouver
> > > > > > > school
> > > > > > > > system has been highlighted as a central goal that all teachers
> > > > must
> > > > > > > > *teach*.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > THIS topic of *private speech* I see as a fulcrum or pivot
> > around
> > > > which
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > enter dialogue at the school level.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for your generous offer.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Larry
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:05 AM, larry smolucha <
> > > > lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Message from Francine,
> > > > > > > > > We had to surrender copyright to the publisher,which is the
> > case
> > > > for
> > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > academic books and journals.Since the book was just
> > published, I
> > > > do
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > think they would let the paperbe posted on-line just yet.
> > > > > > > > > But if you send me  your private e-mail address, I can e-mail
> > > > copies
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > similarpapers.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br
> > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: RES: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > > analysis".
> > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > >      help    me?
> > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 08:05:56 -0300
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Do you can send the paper Smolucha, L. and Smolucha, F.
> > (2012)
> > > > > > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > > > > > Theory of Creativity inContemporary Perspectives on
> > Research in
> > > > > > > > > Creativity
> > > > > > > > > > in Early Childhood Education(Information Age Publishing,
> > > > pp.63-88)
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > xmca?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Joao
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > -----Mensagem original-----
> > > > > > > > > > De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> > > > > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > > > > > > Em
> > > > > > > > > nome
> > > > > > > > > > de larry smolucha
> > > > > > > > > > Enviada em: terça-feira, 23 de abril de 2013 07:42
> > > > > > > > > > Para: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > > > > > Assunto: RE: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > > > analysis". Can
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> > > > > > > > > > Achilles,
> > > > > > > > > > The most direct application of Vygotsky is to observe (and
> > > > > > document)
> > > > > > > > > howthe
> > > > > > > > > > verbal guidance of a more knowledgeable person is
> > internalized
> > > > > > > assilent
> > > > > > > > > > self-guiding inner speech. This is done through discourse
> > > > > > > > > analysis.Sometimes
> > > > > > > > > > there is an intermediate step where the learner speaks
> > parts of
> > > > > > > theverbal
> > > > > > > > > > guidance outloud to him(her)self ( Social Speech - Private
> > > > Speech
> > > > > > > -Inner
> > > > > > > > > > Speech).[Note Vygotsky used the term egocentric speech
> > instead
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > contemporary term private speech]. It would be great to use
> > > > neural
> > > > > > > > > imaging
> > > > > > > > > > techniques to documenthow the cortical functions of the
> > > > prefrontal
> > > > > > > > > cortices
> > > > > > > > > > change as the executivefunction emerges as the self-guiding
> > > > speech
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > employed and internalized.
> > > > > > > > > > Two excellent books that deal with this process are Private
> > > > Speech,
> > > > > > > > > > Executive Functioning, and the Development of
> > > > VerbalSelf-Regulation
> > > > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > Winsler, A,. et. al. ( Cambridge, 2009) The Prefrontal
> > Cortex
> > > > by
> > > > > > > Joaquin
> > > > > > > > > > Fuster  (Academic Press, 2009).[Pages 369-371 discuss the
> > > > > > > development of
> > > > > > > > > > creativity as prefrontal self-regulationof imagination with
> > > > direct
> > > > > > > > > reference
> > > > > > > > > > to the work of both Vygotsky and Luria. Thisis consistent
> > with
> > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > interpretation of Vygotsky's theory of creativity -
> > > >  seeSmolucha,
> > > > > > L.
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > Smolucha, F. (2012) Vygotsky's Theory of Creativity
> > > > inContemporary
> > > > > > > > > > Perspectives on Research in Creativity in Early Childhood
> > > > > > > > > > Education(Information Age Publishing, pp.63-88)] Hope this
> > was
> > > > of
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > help.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 04:28:38 +0000
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj]
> > analysis".
> > > > Can
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > help
> > > > > > > > > > me?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Greetings for all,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Please, I understand that I have a major methodological
> > > > problem
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > nearest research project: "how to understand human
> > making-sense
> > > > > > > through
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > concrete acts of a person's speech?". Along many years I
> > had
> > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > Vygotsky's claim that "“Semiotic [and/or "semantic" =
> > > > semicheskyj]
> > > > > > > > > analysis
> > > > > > > > > > is the only adequate method for the study of the systemic
> > and
> > > > > > > semantic
> > > > > > > > > > structure of consciousness.” (see
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.ht
> > > > > > > > > > m). But it is not so clear how to proceed
> > "Semiotic/semantic
> > > > > > > analysis".
> > > > > > > > > > Then, if you pleased, could somebody help me, shining my
> > mind
> > > > about
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > (im)possibilities about somebody really learn *how to do*
> > such
> > > > kind
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > analysis? Here in Brazil, close to me, there is nobody
> > working
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > something in this direction, then I have no local
> > resources to
> > > > ask
> > > > > > > for...
> > > > > > > > > > Forgive me about the naive character of the question, but I
> > > > really
> > > > > > > want
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > learn about.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much, once more. Best wishes.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Achilles from Brazil.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > > > > > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > > > > > Department of Anthropology
> > > > > > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > > > > > Brigham Young University
> > > > > > Provo, UT 84602
> > > > > > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> > > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________
> > > > > _____
> > > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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