Re: [xmca] perezhivanie als Erlebnis (Zero. The missing link)

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

*aha* moment AS *insight* is moving closer to imaginal *realms* as
participating in the *real
Larry


On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 7:05 AM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>wrote:

> OK, and now back to the missing link:
>
> Zero. Vygotskii equating/associating 'perezhivanie' with Erlebnis.
>
>
> Not to say that I am 100% convinced that they are the same in Vygotskii's
> discourse, but, say,
> 80-90% proof evidence is already available.
>
>
> Yesterday, in addition to hypothetic phrases "perezhivanie (Erlebnis)" or
> " Erlebnis (perezhivanie)"--
> not discovered yet in Vygotskii's writings, as of this morning--
>
> I forgot to mention another kind of evidence that might be more or less
> convincing. This is the case
>
> when Vygotskii is discussing some concept that we are certain is rendered
> in German as
>
> Erlebnis, and Vygotskii uses the word "perezhivanie" in order to talk
> about it.
>
>
> Such instance has been found.
>
>
> In one of his works, specifically, in "Etudes/Studies on the history of
> behaviour. Ape, primitive, child"
>
> (written by the end of 1929, published in Moscow in 1930), on p. 42 of the
> original edition
>
> Vygotskii discusses the "aga-perezhivanie" as it was presented in the work
> of Karl Buehler.
> This Vygotskii's book was by no means a rigorous scholarly study, which is
> clearly reflected in the fact
>
> that nobody bothered to provide a reference to Buehler's quoted words.
> However, we know that
>
> in Buehler's original this "perezhivanie" stands for "Aha-Erlebnis" (also
> known as insight, aha! effect or
> eureka effect), and although no Erlebnis is mentioned in its title :))
> the author's publication in question is most likely this one:
>
>
> Bühler, K. (1907). Tatsachen und Probleme zu einer Psychologie der
> Denkvorgänge.
> Über Gedanken. Archiv für Psychologie, 9, 297-365.
>
>
> Feel free to enjoy the immortal work of the genius of Karl  Bühler.
>
> In addition, one might want to check out this one, too:
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aha-Erlebnis
>
>
> Chances obviously are that while speculating about 'perezhivanie' as a
> unit of the analysis
>
> of person-within-environment during his undergrad lecture at Leningrad
> Pedagogical Institute
>
> in 1933-1934 (I guess this is the only evidence of Vygotskii's use of this
> word, 'perezhivanie' in this meaning),
>
> Vygotskii totally forgot about "aga-perezhivanie"/Aha-Erlebnis. Indeed so,
> and I would bet
>
> he was rather thinking about something like Kurt Lewin's
> Lebensraum/Lifespace or similar
> notions. That is why the evidence presented here does not quite qualify as
> 100% proof of the
> direct link between 'perezhivanie' and 'Erlebnis' in Vygotskii's mind.
>
>
> Still, quite good for a 80-90% proof, anyway :)
>
>
> AY
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Cc: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:43:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] perezhivanie als Erlebnis
>
>
>
> Extremely helpful -- thank you! -- I am getting some things from the list
> to read now, if anyone else does too and wants to discuss do let me know --
> Beth
>
>
>
> 2013/4/24 Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>
> This is fantastic!
> >Thanks,
> >greg
> >
> >
> >On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Several points in response to the issue of perezhivanie as direct
> >> translation of German Erlebnis
> >>
> >> in Vygotsky's texts and the possible origin of this
> >> trans-national/-cultural scientific transfer.
> >>
> >>
> >> Zero. We still have no evidence that Vygotsky directly associated his
> >> perezhivanie with Erlebnis.
> >>
> >> Well, it would be utterly strange if he did not, but -- textual evidence
> >> is not there yet.
> >>
> >> The only thing I would trust as a 100% proof would be a text by Vygotsky
> >> with a phrase
> >>
> >> "perezhivanie (Erlebniss)" or, in reverse order "Erlebnis
> (perezhivanie)".
> >> Yet, such evidence is not
> >>
> >> there yet, therefore, all this is mere speculation. Let's call it a
> >> hypothesis.
> >>
> >>
> >> First. As to Erlebnis, the word was pretty popular in psychological
> >> discourse back then
> >> (i.e. during the first third of 20th century), so that I would speculate
> >> that nobody would be
> >>
> >> terribly surprised to hear that psychology is a science of Erlebnis.
> This
> >> is exactly what Vygotskii
> >>
> >> said when he finally realized that neither 'reflex', nor 'stimulus' and
> >> 'reaction', nor even 'sign'
> >>
> >> works as an object of psychological research.
> >>
> >>
> >> Second. Having some data to support such claims as the one above does
> not
> >> hurt.
> >>
> >> So, in order to have such data, a very tentative and superficial
> research
> >> has been done.
> >>
> >> Murchison's book Psychological Register of 1930 was searched for word
> >> "Erlebnis",
> >>
> >> which showed only the occurrences of the word in the titles of
> >> publications of that period.
> >>
> >> The source is freely available online, here:
> >> http://archive.org/details/psychologicalreg031671mbp
> >>
> >> Thus, according to the search, there are several dozen publications that
> >> directly deal with
> >>
> >> Erlebnis as it is reflected in their titles. Geographic distribution:
> many
> >> occurrences in Germany,
> >>
> >> however, other countries are:
> >>
> >> America, Austria, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark & Iceland, Estonia,
> >> Finland,
> >> France & Algeria, and Hungary.
> >>
> >>
> >> Speaking of the source of potential influence on Vygotskii, all the
> usual
> >> suspects are here.
> >>
> >> The list includes Koffka, the Buehlers, Freud, Busemann, Eliasberg,
> >> Krueger, Lipmann,
> >> Stern W.,  and many others. I personally like not the author who
> >> necessarily influenced Vygotskii,
> >>
> >> although the titles look really cute and pretty much "vygotskian", to my
> >> taste:
> >>
> >> *  Erlebnisanalyse und Sprachwissenschaft (hey, the guy seem to know how
> >> to do the analysis
> >>
> >> of perezhivanie!)
> >>
> >> * Primitives Denken (archaisch-urtueml. Daseins- u. Erlebnisformen)
> >>
> >> This is Alfred Storch, just in case. Anyway, please feel free to
> speculate
> >> and pick your own
> >> character, who might have possibly influenced Vygotskii.
> >> I would definitely vote for the gestaltists although it was only Koffka,
> >> who used the word
> >>
> >> "Erlebnis" in several titles of his published works. By the way: for a
> >> really nice quote from Koffka
> >>
> >> see: http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html
> >>
> >>
> >> Third. For the actual list of publications secundum Murchison see below.
> >>
> >> THE LIST (not to be trusted entirely due to the errors of automatic
> >> character recognition):
> >>
> >> AMERICA
> >> Kahn, Eugen
> >> Unfallereignis und Unfallerlebnis. Munch.
> >> med. Woch., 1925, 72, 1458-1459.
> >>
> >> Koffka, Kurt
> >> * Beitrage zur Psychologic der Gestalt und
> >> Bewegungserlebnisse. Zsch. f. PsychoL,
> >> 1913, 67, 353-358.
> >> * Beitrage zur Psychologic der Gestalt und
> >> Bewegungserlebnisse. III. Zur Grundlegung
> >> der Wahrnehmungspsychologie.
> >> Eine Auseinandersetzung mit V. Benussi.
> >> Zsch. f. PsychoL, 1915, 73, 11-90.
> >>
> >> Schilder, Paul Ferdinand
> >> * Ueber den Wirkungswert psychischer Erlebnisse
> >> und uber die Vielheit der Quellgebiete
> >> der psychischen Energie. Arch. f.
> >> Psychiat. u. Nervenkr., 1924, 70, 1-15.
> >> * Ueber das Hypnose-Erlebnis der Schizophrenen.
> >> Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat.,
> >> 1929, 120, 700-708.
> >>
> >> AUSTRIA
> >> Buehler, Charlotte Bertha
> >> Der Erlebnisbegriff in der modernen Kunst-
> >> wissenschaft. In Festschrift fur Walzel.
> >> Wien, 1924. S. 14.
> >>
> >> Buehler, Karl
> >> Erlebnis, Benehmen und Werk. Proc. 6T
> >> Papers 9th Int. Cong. PsychoL, 1929, 102-
> >> 103.
> >>
> >> Freud, Sigmund
> >> Kin religioses Erlebnis. Imago, 1928, 14,
> >> 7-10.
> >> Englisch: Religious experience. Int. J.
> >> Psycho-AnaL, 1929, 10, 1-4.
> >>
> >> BULGARIA
> >> Kasandjiev, Spiro Spassov
> >> [Neue Methode fiir theoretische Untersuchung
> >> und praktische Behandlung der
> >> pathogenen affektiven Erlebnissen.] Utschilisten
> >> Pregled, 1930, 29, 29-42.
> >>
> >> Kinkel, Johann
> >> Das psychologische Wesen des Mystizismus
> >> und mystisch-okkulter Erlebnisse und
> >> Offenbarrungen. Eer. u. d. int. Kong. f.
> >> Sexualforsch., Berlin, 10-16 Oktober 1926,
> >> 1928, 3, 74-109.
> >>
> >> Krestnikoff, Nicolaus G.
> >> Die heilende Wirkung kunstlich hervorgerufener
> >> Reproduktionen von pathogenen
> >> affektiven Erlebnissen. Arch. f. Psychiat.
> >> u. Nervenkr., 1929, 88, 369-410.
> >>
> >> CZECHOSLOVAKIA
> >> Kraus, Oskar
> >> Meine Erlebnisse mit Frau Maria Silbert
> >> im Hause des Herrn Neubert. Zsch. f.
> >> Parapsychol., 1928, 65, 726-738.
> >>
> >> DENMARK & ICELAND
> >> Hoffding, Harald.
> >> Oplevelse og Tydning. K0benhavn: Gyldendal,
> >> 1918. Pp. 238.
> >> German: Erlebnis und Deutung. (Uebersetz.
> >> von E. Magnus.) Stuttgart: Frommann,
> >> 1923. S. 117.
> >>
> >> ESTONIA
> >> Gruehn Werner Georg Alexander
> >> Das Werterlebnis. Eine religionspsychologische
> >> Studie auf experimenteller Grundlage.
> >> Leipzig: Hirzel, 1924. S. 252.
> >>
> >> FINLAND
> >> Ruin, Hans Waldermar
> >> Erlebnis und Wissen. Kritischer Gang
> >> durch die englische Psychologie. Helsingfors:
> >> Soderstrom, 1921. Pp. 303.
> >>
> >> FRANCE & ALGERIA
> >> Minkowski, Eugene
> >> Bleulers Schizoidie und Syntonie und das
> >> Zeiterlebnis. Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat.,
> >> 1923, 82, 212-230.
> >>
> >> GERMANY
> >> BUsemann, Adolf Hermann Heinrich
> >> Die Familie als Erlebnismilieu des Kindes.
> >> Zsch. f. Kinderforsch., 1929, 36, 17-82.
> >>
> >> von Duerckheim-Montmartin, Karlfried
> >> Untersuchungen zurn gelebten Raum, Erlebniswirklichkeit
> >> und ihr Verstandnis. Systematische
> >> Untersuchungen II. Neue psychol.
> >> Stud., 1931, 6, 383-480.
> >>
> >> Eliasberg, Wladimir
> >> Das Zwangserlebnis und der soziale Zwang.
> >> Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat., 1930,
> >> 126, 417-425. Audi Ber. d. V. allg.
> >> drztl. Kong. /. Psychotherap., Baden-
> >> Baden, 1930, 26-29.
> >>
> >> Giese, Fritz W. O.
> >> * Der anomale Transvestie in ihrem Erlebniswert.
> >> Zsch. f. Sex.-<wiss. u. Sex.-pol.,
> >> 1918, 4, 1-6.
> >> * Das Gullivererlebnis der Jugend. Zsch. f.
> >> pad. Psychol., 1925, 26, 257-264.
> >> * Erlebnisformen des Alterns. Dtsc/i. Psychol.,
> >> 1928, 5, 1-90.
> >>
> >> Henning, Hans Karl Ferdinand
> >> * Das Erlebnis beim dichterischen Gleichnis
> >> und dessen Ursprung. Zsch. /. Asth. u.
> >> allg. Kunsfwiss., 1919, 13, 371-396.
> >> * Die neuentdeckte Erlebnisklasse der Eidetik,
> >> die Urbilder und der Konstitutionstypus.
> >> Ber. d. Kong. f. dtsch. Nervenarzte, Danzig,
> >> 1924. Dtsch. Zsch. f. Nervcnhk., 1924,
> >> 81, 180-184.
> >>
> >> Hoffman, Arthur
> >> Gruppenerlebnis in einem Kindertagesheim.
> >> Ein Beitrag Psychologic des sozialen Verhaltens
> >> in der friihen Kindheit. Zsch. f.
> >> pad. Psychol., 1931, 32, 244-263.
> >>
> >> Kafka, Gustav
> >> Erlebnis und Theorie in Fichtes Lehre vom
> >> Verhaltnis der Geschlechter. Zsch. f. angcw.
> >> Psychol., 1920, 16, 1-24.
> >>
> >> Krueger, Felix Emil
> >> Erlebnisganzheit. Ueber seelische Struktur.
> >> Forsch. u. Fo?tschr., 1930, 6, 461-463, 447-
> >> 448.
> >>
> >> Lipmann, Otto
> >> Die Spuren interessebetonter Erlebnisse und
> >> ihre Symptome. Zsch. f. angeew. Psychol.,
> >> 1911, Beiheft 1.
> >>
> >> Mayer-Gross, Willy
> >> Selbstschilderungen der Verwirrtheit. Die
> >> oneiroide Erlebnisform. (Monog. a. d.
> >> Gch. d. Neur. u. Psychiat., 42.) Berlin:
> >> Springer, 1924. S. 296.
> >>
> >> Moers, Martha
> >> * Zur Psychologic des Reueerlebnisses. (Auf
> >> Grund einer Umfrage.) Arch. f. d. ges
> >> Psychol., 1926, 55, 297-360.
> >> * Zur Psychopathologie des Reueerlebnisses.
> >>
> >> Mueller-Freienfels, Richard
> >> Charakter und Erlebnis. Jahrb. d. Charakterol.,
> >> 1926, 2-3, 21-45.
> >>
> >> Ritterhaus, Ernst Ludwig Johann
> >> Die 'Spuren interessebetonter Erlebnisse'
> >> und die 'Komplexforschung.' Zsch. f. d.
> >> ges. Neur. u. Psychiat., 1912, 8, 273-283.
> >>
> >> Schneider, Kurt
> >> Zur Psychologic und Pathologic der Gefiihlserlebnisse.
> >> Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u.
> >> Psychiat., 1928, 112, 233-246.
> >>
> >> Schwarz, George H.D.
> >> Erlebnis und Deutung in der Geschichte der
> >> Philosophic. Bin Beitrag zur Geschichte
> >> der Axiologie. In Vom sittlich-religibsen
> >> Erleben, hrg. von G. Schwarz. Greifswald:
> >> Bamberg, 1924. S. 5-16.
> >>
> >> Stern, Erich
> >> * Krankheit und religioses Erlebnis. Berlin.
> >> Philoverlag, 1930. S. 26.
> >> * Die ersten Gefuhlserlebnisse des Kinder
> >> Kleine Kinder, 1931, 4, 101-104.
> >>
> >> Stern, Louis William
> >> * Freundschafts- und Feinschafts-Erlebnisse in
> >> der fruhen Pubertat. Zsch. f. pad. Psychol.,
> >> 1925, 26, 81-97.
> >> * Ernstspiel als Verhalten und als Erlebnis.
> >> Zsch. f. pad. Psychol., 1929, 30, 9-16.
> >>
> >> Storch, Alfred
> >> * Erlebnisanalyse und Sprachwissenschaft.
> >> Zsch. f. Psycho!., 1924, 94, 146-152.
> >> * Primitives Denken (archaisch-urtiiml. Daseins-
> >> u. Erlebnisformen). Im Handvwrterhuch
> >> der medizinischen Psychologies
> >> hrg. von K. Birnbaum. Leipzig: Thieme.
> >> 1930.
> >>
> >> Voigtlander, Elise
> >> * Ueber die 'Art' eines Menschen und das
> >> Erlebnis der 'Maske.' Zsch. f. Psychol.,
> >> 1923,92, 326-336.
> >> * Zur Phanomenologie und Psychologie des
> >> 'alpinen' Erlebnisses. Zsch. f. angew. Psychol.,
> >> 1923, 33, 258-270.
> >>
> >> HUNGARY
> >> Lenart, Edith
> >> Anschauliche Inhalte im asthetischen Erlebnis.
> >> Zsch. f. Psychol., 1926, 99, 357-374.
> >>
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> >Visiting Assistant Professor
> >Department of Anthropology
> >883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> >Brigham Young University
> >Provo, UT 84602
> >http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
> >
> >__________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
> Beth Ferholt
> Assistant Professor
> School of Education
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> Phone: (718) 951-5205
> Fax: (718) 951-4816
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