Re: [xmca] perezhivanie als Erlebnis (60 Years Gone Astray?)

[Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>]

Quite a bunch of questions, below. I will group them somehow, but please let me know

if anything will get missing at the end.


1. Beware of the 'double meanings': nothing like that in Lewin or Vygotskii.

Instead, this is rather a transition from more or less solidly held 
more or less hardcore gestaltist views to a 'revisionist version' (for Lewin)

and, quite in contrast, transition from mechanism and elementarism of his

"instrumental psychology" of 1920s to gestaltist holism of 1930s (for Vygotskii).

In both cases what we have is clearly not the orthodox and adamant holism

of, say, Wertheimer or Koehler, but some its variations. In addition, the whole
situation is even more and further complicated by the mutual interest of Lewin 

and Vygotskii in early 1930s who until then studied mostly emotions/affect/will and 

intellect/verbal performance respectively and, sharing some basic intuitions by early 1930s,

appeared most natural complements to each other. So, no double meanings, but

rather dialectic transition. The principle of historicism in action, you know :)


2. No comments on Erfahrung: so far I have just speculating on the origin of occasional 'perezhivanie' as

Erlebnis in Vygotskii's works. 


3. A comment on " cultural-historical-gestalt theory ": there never was such a thing. Not to mention

the fact that "cultural-historical theory" appeared only AFTER Vygotskii's death in the discourse

of some totally mad Stalinist, the whole construct is definitely a liberty that some contemporary

scholar took to talk about the intellectual processes of 1930s. It is important to understand that 

Lewin and Vygotskii did exchange letters and even briefly met in the spring of 1933 (Lewin even 

seems to be staying with the Vygodskiis), but never created anything scholarly together. 

It is really hard to assess the impact of Vygotskii on Lewin: perhaps there was some, possibly, through

Luria (via correspondence) or Lewin's Russian associates in the United States such as Dembo, 
[Rickers-]Ovsiankina, Jacob S. Kounin, may be there was some contact with Jacob Kasanin, too.


However, the impact of Lewin on Russian Vygotsky Circle and, specifically, Vygotskii was just enormous.

There is no evidence that Lewin ever attempted to replicate Vygotskii either in Germany or in the US.

But there is sufficiently rich evidence that the Vygotskii gang copiously replicated Lewin's studies.

Virtually no traces of Vygotskii's conceptual apparatus in Lewin's and Lewinian discourse, 

but apparent major reconstruction of the entire conceptual framework of Vygotskian theory that, in 1930s, 

acquired various 'fields', 'barriers', 'affordances' etc. Notably, they enriched all this with their fascination

with "smyslovoi" (roughly, semic, semantic, meaning-related) aspect of psychological functioning.

This emphasis on 'value', 'meaning', and 'significance', however, still can be found in the very foundations
--not necessarily explicitly articulated in the context of positivistic North American science, 
at least so until the mid-1930s--of Gestalt psychology. On the fundamental importance of "semiotic aspect"

see most curious confession's of one of Gestalt movement founders, Kurt Koffka, that he made in 1935;
quoted here: [ http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html ]


Finally, there are no traces of a "vygotskii conference" in Boston or New York in mid-1930s, 
but there is documentary evidence of the plans for 'Topologische Meeting" in Moscow or Kharkov in 1936.


So, in other words, the process of convergence was taking place mostly in the Soviet Union, but still, 

one should take it into consideration that the American-German emigre psychology was also developing

in the directions fairly resemblant of Vygotskii's key interests, e.g., language, speech, meaning. 

The work of Kurt Goldstein (language and speech, aphasia, and brain pathology) and Heinz Werner 
(language, culture, ethnicity) and its interplay with gestaltist conception is certainly of enormous interest 

in this respect.


All these, extremely complicated, processes, cultural and intellectual exchange, CUMULATIVELY qualify, 

I believe, as *the* "cultural-historical gestalt psychology" that was developing back than and, 
by extension, we definitely need today.


So, --


4. In response to " Anton, are you proposing to return to this transformative conversation
between Lewin and Vygotsky, etc " --


I would say --yep, this is exactly what I mean. There is nothing wrong with idea of returning. Go ask Aaro Toomela

(hi, Aaro, I know--Big Brother is watching us:)--you are reading this now) if 60 years [or so] in psychology

have gone astray or not:

http://books.google.ca/books/about/Methodological_Thinking_in_Psychology.html?id=Oeg98H3E9yIC&redir_esc=y


Indeed, why not to get back to those nice books of 1930s, especially so since they are still so much

full with meaning (pun intended) we are missing so much in our contemporary psychological discourse.


Amen.

AY




________________________________
 From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:02:37 AM
Subject: Re: [xmca] perezhivanie als Erlebnis
 

Anton, Greg, Beth,

I find this thread opening up many questions.
The article Greg referred to "To Be Alive When Something Happens Retrieving
Dilthey's Erlebnis" also introduced the German term *erfahrung* (a
social-historical concept of experience.)
The other thread is Anton's recent post exploring the source of the 1920's
book "the Crisis in Psychology".
Then in the 1930's, extending cultural-historical to include *gestalt* but
a particular 'meaning of gestalt' that is expanded beyond its traditional
meaning to include fragmentation as well as unity.

Is there a connection between the *double* meaning of experience ( erlebnis
&refahrung) and the *double* meaning of gestalt??

Then we move to Anton's thesis that in the 1930's the encounter with
Lewin's double meaning of gestalt (unity & fragmentation) which I am
intuitively speculating is the expansion of gestalt beyond its traditional
meaning creating a 'new crisis in psychology' that Lewin and Vygotsky were,
through dialogue, expanding to potentially revision cultural-historical AS
cultural-historical-gestalt theory??

Anton, are you proposing to return to this transformative conversation
between Lewin and Vygotsky to capture that moment in the 1930' when Lewin
and Vygotsky were developing psychology as a discourse??

To see their work in the 1920's as a prelude to their newly
forming expanded understanding of psychology and a confluence of emerging
trends in Gestalt psychology?
Was the concept of *erfahrung* a key aspect of this emerging
reconfiguration of the two traditions??

Just wondering

Larry



2013/4/25 Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>

> Extremely helpful -- thank you! -- I am getting some things from the list
> to read now, if anyone else does too and wants to discuss do let me know --
> Beth
>
>
> 2013/4/24 Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
>
> > This is fantastic!
> > Thanks,
> > greg
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Several points in response to the issue of perezhivanie as direct
> > > translation of German Erlebnis
> > >
> > > in Vygotsky's texts and the possible origin of this
> > > trans-national/-cultural scientific transfer.
> > >
> > >
> > > Zero. We still have no evidence that Vygotsky directly associated his
> > > perezhivanie with Erlebnis.
> > >
> > > Well, it would be utterly strange if he did not, but -- textual
> evidence
> > > is not there yet.
> > >
> > > The only thing I would trust as a 100% proof would be a text by
> Vygotsky
> > > with a phrase
> > >
> > > "perezhivanie (Erlebniss)" or, in reverse order "Erlebnis
> > (perezhivanie)".
> > > Yet, such evidence is not
> > >
> > > there yet, therefore, all this is mere speculation. Let's call it a
> > > hypothesis.
> > >
> > >
> > > First. As to Erlebnis, the word was pretty popular in psychological
> > > discourse back then
> > > (i.e. during the first third of 20th century), so that I would
> speculate
> > > that nobody would be
> > >
> > > terribly surprised to hear that psychology is a science of Erlebnis.
> This
> > > is exactly what Vygotskii
> > >
> > > said when he finally realized that neither 'reflex', nor 'stimulus' and
> > > 'reaction', nor even 'sign'
> > >
> > > works as an object of psychological research.
> > >
> > >
> > > Second. Having some data to support such claims as the one above does
> not
> > > hurt.
> > >
> > > So, in order to have such data, a very tentative and superficial
> research
> > > has been done.
> > >
> > > Murchison's book Psychological Register of 1930 was searched for word
> > > "Erlebnis",
> > >
> > > which showed only the occurrences of the word in the titles of
> > > publications of that period.
> > >
> > > The source is freely available online, here:
> > > http://archive.org/details/psychologicalreg031671mbp
> > >
> > > Thus, according to the search, there are several dozen publications
> that
> > > directly deal with
> > >
> > > Erlebnis as it is reflected in their titles. Geographic distribution:
> > many
> > > occurrences in Germany,
> > >
> > > however, other countries are:
> > >
> > > America, Austria, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark & Iceland, Estonia,
> > > Finland,
> > > France & Algeria, and Hungary.
> > >
> > >
> > > Speaking of the source of potential influence on Vygotskii, all the
> usual
> > > suspects are here.
> > >
> > > The list includes Koffka, the Buehlers, Freud, Busemann, Eliasberg,
> > > Krueger, Lipmann,
> > > Stern W.,  and many others. I personally like not the author who
> > > necessarily influenced Vygotskii,
> > >
> > > although the titles look really cute and pretty much "vygotskian", to
> my
> > > taste:
> > >
> > > *  Erlebnisanalyse und Sprachwissenschaft (hey, the guy seem to know
> how
> > > to do the analysis
> > >
> > > of perezhivanie!)
> > >
> > > * Primitives Denken (archaisch-urtueml. Daseins- u. Erlebnisformen)
> > >
> > > This is Alfred Storch, just in case. Anyway, please feel free to
> > speculate
> > > and pick your own
> > > character, who might have possibly influenced Vygotskii.
> > > I would definitely vote for the gestaltists although it was only
> Koffka,
> > > who used the word
> > >
> > > "Erlebnis" in several titles of his published works. By the way: for a
> > > really nice quote from Koffka
> > >
> > > see: http://psyhistorik.livejournal.com/80047.html
> > >
> > >
> > > Third. For the actual list of publications secundum Murchison see
> below.
> > >
> > > THE LIST (not to be trusted entirely due to the errors of automatic
> > > character recognition):
> > >
> > > AMERICA
> > > Kahn, Eugen
> > > Unfallereignis und Unfallerlebnis. Munch.
> > > med. Woch., 1925, 72, 1458-1459.
> > >
> > > Koffka, Kurt
> > > * Beitrage zur Psychologic der Gestalt und
> > > Bewegungserlebnisse. Zsch. f. PsychoL,
> > > 1913, 67, 353-358.
> > > * Beitrage zur Psychologic der Gestalt und
> > > Bewegungserlebnisse. III. Zur Grundlegung
> > > der Wahrnehmungspsychologie.
> > > Eine Auseinandersetzung mit V. Benussi.
> > > Zsch. f. PsychoL, 1915, 73, 11-90.
> > >
> > > Schilder, Paul Ferdinand
> > > * Ueber den Wirkungswert psychischer Erlebnisse
> > > und uber die Vielheit der Quellgebiete
> > > der psychischen Energie. Arch. f.
> > > Psychiat. u. Nervenkr., 1924, 70, 1-15.
> > > * Ueber das Hypnose-Erlebnis der Schizophrenen.
> > > Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat.,
> > > 1929, 120, 700-708.
> > >
> > > AUSTRIA
> > > Buehler, Charlotte Bertha
> > > Der Erlebnisbegriff in der modernen Kunst-
> > > wissenschaft. In Festschrift fur Walzel.
> > > Wien, 1924. S. 14.
> > >
> > > Buehler, Karl
> > > Erlebnis, Benehmen und Werk. Proc. 6T
> > > Papers 9th Int. Cong. PsychoL, 1929, 102-
> > > 103.
> > >
> > > Freud, Sigmund
> > > Kin religioses Erlebnis. Imago, 1928, 14,
> > > 7-10.
> > > Englisch: Religious experience. Int. J.
> > > Psycho-AnaL, 1929, 10, 1-4.
> > >
> > > BULGARIA
> > > Kasandjiev, Spiro Spassov
> > > [Neue Methode fiir theoretische Untersuchung
> > > und praktische Behandlung der
> > > pathogenen affektiven Erlebnissen.] Utschilisten
> > > Pregled, 1930, 29, 29-42.
> > >
> > > Kinkel, Johann
> > > Das psychologische Wesen des Mystizismus
> > > und mystisch-okkulter Erlebnisse und
> > > Offenbarrungen. Eer. u. d. int. Kong. f.
> > > Sexualforsch., Berlin, 10-16 Oktober 1926,
> > > 1928, 3, 74-109.
> > >
> > > Krestnikoff, Nicolaus G.
> > > Die heilende Wirkung kunstlich hervorgerufener
> > > Reproduktionen von pathogenen
> > > affektiven Erlebnissen. Arch. f. Psychiat.
> > > u. Nervenkr., 1929, 88, 369-410.
> > >
> > > CZECHOSLOVAKIA
> > > Kraus, Oskar
> > > Meine Erlebnisse mit Frau Maria Silbert
> > > im Hause des Herrn Neubert. Zsch. f.
> > > Parapsychol., 1928, 65, 726-738.
> > >
> > > DENMARK & ICELAND
> > > Hoffding, Harald.
> > > Oplevelse og Tydning. K0benhavn: Gyldendal,
> > > 1918. Pp. 238.
> > > German: Erlebnis und Deutung. (Uebersetz.
> > > von E. Magnus.) Stuttgart: Frommann,
> > > 1923. S. 117.
> > >
> > > ESTONIA
> > > Gruehn Werner Georg Alexander
> > > Das Werterlebnis. Eine religionspsychologische
> > > Studie auf experimenteller Grundlage.
> > > Leipzig: Hirzel, 1924. S. 252.
> > >
> > > FINLAND
> > > Ruin, Hans Waldermar
> > > Erlebnis und Wissen. Kritischer Gang
> > > durch die englische Psychologie. Helsingfors:
> > > Soderstrom, 1921. Pp. 303.
> > >
> > > FRANCE & ALGERIA
> > > Minkowski, Eugene
> > > Bleulers Schizoidie und Syntonie und das
> > > Zeiterlebnis. Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat.,
> > > 1923, 82, 212-230.
> > >
> > > GERMANY
> > > BUsemann, Adolf Hermann Heinrich
> > > Die Familie als Erlebnismilieu des Kindes.
> > > Zsch. f. Kinderforsch., 1929, 36, 17-82.
> > >
> > > von Duerckheim-Montmartin, Karlfried
> > > Untersuchungen zurn gelebten Raum, Erlebniswirklichkeit
> > > und ihr Verstandnis. Systematische
> > > Untersuchungen II. Neue psychol.
> > > Stud., 1931, 6, 383-480.
> > >
> > > Eliasberg, Wladimir
> > > Das Zwangserlebnis und der soziale Zwang.
> > > Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u. Psychiat., 1930,
> > > 126, 417-425. Audi Ber. d. V. allg.
> > > drztl. Kong. /. Psychotherap., Baden-
> > > Baden, 1930, 26-29.
> > >
> > > Giese, Fritz W. O.
> > > * Der anomale Transvestie in ihrem Erlebniswert.
> > > Zsch. f. Sex.-<wiss. u. Sex.-pol.,
> > > 1918, 4, 1-6.
> > > * Das Gullivererlebnis der Jugend. Zsch. f.
> > > pad. Psychol., 1925, 26, 257-264.
> > > * Erlebnisformen des Alterns. Dtsc/i. Psychol.,
> > > 1928, 5, 1-90.
> > >
> > > Henning, Hans Karl Ferdinand
> > > * Das Erlebnis beim dichterischen Gleichnis
> > > und dessen Ursprung. Zsch. /. Asth. u.
> > > allg. Kunsfwiss., 1919, 13, 371-396.
> > > * Die neuentdeckte Erlebnisklasse der Eidetik,
> > > die Urbilder und der Konstitutionstypus.
> > > Ber. d. Kong. f. dtsch. Nervenarzte, Danzig,
> > > 1924. Dtsch. Zsch. f. Nervcnhk., 1924,
> > > 81, 180-184.
> > >
> > > Hoffman, Arthur
> > > Gruppenerlebnis in einem Kindertagesheim.
> > > Ein Beitrag Psychologic des sozialen Verhaltens
> > > in der friihen Kindheit. Zsch. f.
> > > pad. Psychol., 1931, 32, 244-263.
> > >
> > > Kafka, Gustav
> > > Erlebnis und Theorie in Fichtes Lehre vom
> > > Verhaltnis der Geschlechter. Zsch. f. angcw.
> > > Psychol., 1920, 16, 1-24.
> > >
> > > Krueger, Felix Emil
> > > Erlebnisganzheit. Ueber seelische Struktur.
> > > Forsch. u. Fo?tschr., 1930, 6, 461-463, 447-
> > > 448.
> > >
> > > Lipmann, Otto
> > > Die Spuren interessebetonter Erlebnisse und
> > > ihre Symptome. Zsch. f. angeew. Psychol.,
> > > 1911, Beiheft 1.
> > >
> > > Mayer-Gross, Willy
> > > Selbstschilderungen der Verwirrtheit. Die
> > > oneiroide Erlebnisform. (Monog. a. d.
> > > Gch. d. Neur. u. Psychiat., 42.) Berlin:
> > > Springer, 1924. S. 296.
> > >
> > > Moers, Martha
> > > * Zur Psychologic des Reueerlebnisses. (Auf
> > > Grund einer Umfrage.) Arch. f. d. ges
> > > Psychol., 1926, 55, 297-360.
> > > * Zur Psychopathologie des Reueerlebnisses.
> > >
> > > Mueller-Freienfels, Richard
> > > Charakter und Erlebnis. Jahrb. d. Charakterol.,
> > > 1926, 2-3, 21-45.
> > >
> > > Ritterhaus, Ernst Ludwig Johann
> > > Die 'Spuren interessebetonter Erlebnisse'
> > > und die 'Komplexforschung.' Zsch. f. d.
> > > ges. Neur. u. Psychiat., 1912, 8, 273-283.
> > >
> > > Schneider, Kurt
> > > Zur Psychologic und Pathologic der Gefiihlserlebnisse.
> > > Zsch. f. d. ges. Neur. u.
> > > Psychiat., 1928, 112, 233-246.
> > >
> > > Schwarz, George H.D.
> > > Erlebnis und Deutung in der Geschichte der
> > > Philosophic. Bin Beitrag zur Geschichte
> > > der Axiologie. In Vom sittlich-religibsen
> > > Erleben, hrg. von G. Schwarz. Greifswald:
> > > Bamberg, 1924. S. 5-16.
> > >
> > > Stern, Erich
> > > * Krankheit und religioses Erlebnis. Berlin.
> > > Philoverlag, 1930. S. 26.
> > > * Die ersten Gefuhlserlebnisse des Kinder
> > > Kleine Kinder, 1931, 4, 101-104.
> > >
> > > Stern, Louis William
> > > * Freundschafts- und Feinschafts-Erlebnisse in
> > > der fruhen Pubertat. Zsch. f. pad. Psychol.,
> > > 1925, 26, 81-97.
> > > * Ernstspiel als Verhalten und als Erlebnis.
> > > Zsch. f. pad. Psychol., 1929, 30, 9-16.
> > >
> > > Storch, Alfred
> > > * Erlebnisanalyse und Sprachwissenschaft.
> > > Zsch. f. Psycho!., 1924, 94, 146-152.
> > > * Primitives Denken (archaisch-urtiiml. Daseins-
> > > u. Erlebnisformen). Im Handvwrterhuch
> > > der medizinischen Psychologies
> > > hrg. von K. Birnbaum. Leipzig: Thieme.
> > > 1930.
> > >
> > > Voigtlander, Elise
> > > * Ueber die 'Art' eines Menschen und das
> > > Erlebnis der 'Maske.' Zsch. f. Psychol.,
> > > 1923,92, 326-336.
> > > * Zur Phanomenologie und Psychologie des
> > > 'alpinen' Erlebnisses. Zsch. f. angew. Psychol.,
> > > 1923, 33, 258-270.
> > >
> > > HUNGARY
> > > Lenart, Edith
> > > Anschauliche Inhalte im asthetischen Erlebnis.
> > > Zsch. f. Psychol., 1926, 99, 357-374.
> > >
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> >
> > --
> > Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
> > Visiting Assistant Professor
> > Department of Anthropology
> > 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
> > Brigham Young University
> > Provo, UT 84602
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
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>
> --
> Beth Ferholt
> Assistant Professor
> School of Education
> Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> 2900 Bedford Avenue
> Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
>
> Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
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