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Re: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
Dear all,
Please do not take my considerations into account. I was terribly
wrong about Emilia Ferreito and the "caminho suave".
Sorry one more time.
Wagner
2013/1/14 Luisa Aires <laires11@gmail.com>:
> Dear All
> I have nothing to add to the video translation (a very good work!). I agree
> with Armando´s comments.
> In what concerns the work of Emilia Ferreiro, I don’t know her theory, but
> if she is a Piagetian, her theory may have deep differences when compared
> to Vygotsky ;-)
>
> Best wishes,
> Luísa A.
>
>
> On 12 January 2013 22:41, kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net> wrote:
>
>> Many thanks to everybody who responded so quickly and fulsomely
>> (especially to Armando). I'm ashamed to say I've never read Ferreiro, but I
>> ordered "Literacy Before Schooling" and it's on the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> I too was very struck by Wagner's comments (Wagner--is that a surname or a
>> given name? Should we call you Luiz?). According to the article Armando
>> sent around, Ferreiro was just as much a political refugee as Freire
>> himself, and the two actually appear to have worked together at one point.
>> Of course, the Videla dictatorship used her work, but the same thing was
>> true of Freire's. So why would she be blamed for Brazilian functionial
>> illiteracy?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just on the basis of Armando's article, I can think of three reasons why
>> this might happen, but they all amount to accusing her of being
>> a researcher. The first is that unlike Freire she doesn't appear to be
>> directly interested in teacher training. For reasons I don't understand,
>> researchers are very reluctant to "do the teacher's job for her", as
>> Ferreiro puts it, although very few of us get coy, shy or "too busy" when
>> the government or when some commericial corporation wants to learn about
>> how our work might be applied. I don't understand this, because while
>> bitter experience has taught me to be very suspicious when governments and
>> corporations want me to do a job for them, I have found working more
>> directly with teachers immensely rewarding (I understand Freire felt pretty
>> much the same way and I know Mike does).
>>
>>
>>
>> The second is that although Ferreiro doesn't believe that phonemes are
>> psychologically real (it's very hard to find language researchers who still
>> do) she is very interested in how drawing and spelling are distinct, in the
>> moment when the child understands that drawing is a synchronic tracing of
>> the graphic contours of an object while spelling is diachronic and not
>> based on on a graphic-visual representation at all. Her experiments on
>> three-letter 'words' in English and Spanish remind me more of Piaget's
>> interest in conservation experiments and also his early clinical work
>> asking questions like "Why does the moon stay up in the sky?" where the
>> child cannot really bring any personal experience to bear in the answer. I
>> think that BOTH Vygotsky and Freire would reply that drawing and spelling
>> cannot be mechanically separated in that way, which is why so much of the
>> child's early literacy is concerned with cartoons and comics. As Freire
>> would say there has to be some way to get the world into the word.
>>
>>
>>
>> The third, though, is the issue that Wagner (Luiz Schmit?) raises: this
>> focus on decontextualized three letter words (consonants in English and in
>> the Semitic languages but VOWELS in Spanish--I bet Japanese is like
>> Spanish) is invariably going to lead in the direction of phonics education,
>> and of course phonics education has been, rightly or wrongly, accused with
>> producing precisely the state of affairs that Wagner describes: people who
>> can decode phonemes but remain functionally illiterate. It's interesting,
>> though, that Wagner says Ferreiro advocates using small mnemonic pictures
>> to teach letter-sound correspondances; this is approach that French
>> researchers on dyslexia have taken, and of course it's the basis of many
>> Chinese characters (and China remains lowest in the world in certain types
>> of dyslexia).
>>
>>
>>
>> Notice that Ferreiro uses the SAME experiment that Luria uses--trying to
>> get children to write before they know how--in her Little Red Riding Hood
>> studies. But Luria is mostly interested in memory, while Ferreiro is trying
>> to get a narrative.Vygotsky does talk about a "graphic" basis to many word
>> meanings (he is trying to demonstrate that language is not a legal
>> contract; that there is a 'natural history' to signs that precludes the
>> Saussurean approach that his structuralist colleagues are insisting on,
>> which Piaget then greatly developed). But he really is talking about WORD
>> or even TEXT meanings: he's talking about the way, for example, "The early
>> bird catches the worm" conjures up more of drawable (and cartoonable) image
>> than "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise".
>>
>>
>>
>> I think Vygotsky sees the same layers of semiohistory that Halliday does
>> (in the plenary talk I posted here some time ago). That is, man passes
>> through epochs in his productive life, and so his literary products pass
>> through typical genres. The format which is typical of forest life is
>> literal, the proverb. The format which is more typical of farming life is
>> figurative, the fable. But when we arrive at factory life, we need systems
>> of great abstraction and precision--and this explains why proverbs and
>> fables are subsumed as epics, and then as romances and eventually novels.
>> And it is really only with modern life that the distinction Piaget between
>> diachronic narrative and synchronic dialogue becomes essential. Hence the
>> importance of two forms of literary "prehistory" that have no obvious
>> relationship to phonemes at all: play and drawing.
>>
>>
>>
>> David Kellogg
>>
>> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------- 원본 메일 ---------
>>
>> *보낸사람*: Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net>
>> *받는사람* : Culture ActivityeXtended Mind <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> *날짜*: 2013년 1월 13일 일요일, 05시 04분 44초 +0900
>> *제목*: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
>>
>> There's a Freire mongograph called "Cultural Action for Freedom" about
>> the work with adults and literacy that is quite old and quite clear, I
>> think.
>> PG
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/12/13, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>> >
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> Date: Saturday, January 12, 2013, 7:11 AM
>>
>>
>> Wagner
>>
>> What an interesting post. We don't know the intricacies of
>> the implementation of the Freire project. Perhaps the learners were asked
>> to read about what is called by Geertz "experience-far" concepts.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> On 12 January 2013 13:47, Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Kellog,
>> >
>> > He is talking in a kind of mix of Spanish and Portuguese, so
>> > yes, Portuguese speakers can comprehend him.
>> >
>> > I think that the question of who is Emilia Ferreiro is already covered.
>> >
>> > But one thing is important to note: Many say that the "caminho suave"
>> (soft
>> > way) for alphabetization proposed by Ferreiro, based on the teaching of
>> the
>> > relationship between letters and phonemes and with a image in the form of
>> > the letter to help the child remenber, is mechanistic and led to a very
>> > very serious problem we face in Brazil now: a very high percentage of
>> > people with functional illiteracy. Much before Ferreiro propositions,
>> > Vygotsky already criticized this kind of alphabetization, that seems to
>> be
>> > gathering force again with some dubious "neurological background" from
>> the
>> > cognitive sciences, for the lack of opportunity for the child to give
>> > meaning for this.
>> >
>> > Many educators in Brazil "blame" Piaget and Ferreiro for the lack of
>> > capacity for many Brazilians (even in the university) to comprehend a
>> text,
>> > they can read but can't give it a meaning and much less criticize it,
>> i.e.,
>> > no abstract reasoning about the text. Paulo Freire ways seems to goes in
>> > the Vygotsky direction, but we must remenber also that he worked with
>> adult
>> > workers, not elementary school children.
>> >
>> > I am hyper simplifying things here, and of course there are other factors
>> > to this phenomena, but this is the kind of discussion you would hear
>> about
>> > in these parts.
>> >
>> > Wagner
>> >
>> > 2013/1/11 kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
>> >
>> >
>> > > I wonder if I could get some help from our Latin American friends.
>> > > There is this video of Freire speaking in 1992 about his relationship
>> to
>> > > Vygotsky:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8IQ7LlEyY
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I gather that what he says is roughly this:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > a) When he first read Vygotsky, it appeared to him that Vygotsky had
>> > > copied his own work! (That's a joke--he acknowledges that Vygotsky had
>> > died
>> > > nearly sixty years earlier)
>> > >
>> > > b) Vygotsky goes much further than Piaget in his understanding of
>> > language
>> > > acquisition.
>> > >
>> > > c) There is some OTHER person ("Emilia Fujera"?) who goes much further
>> > > still in her scientific understanding of language acquisition but who
>> > does
>> > > not go nearly as far as Freire himself in the ideological/political
>> > > understanding of education.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > For some reason, Freire is speaking in Spanish, although I imagine a
>> > > Portuguese speaker could understand him. The problem is that I can't
>> > follow
>> > > very well, having never really studied either language. Can somebody
>> > help?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Who is "Emilia Fujera"?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > David Kellogg
>> > >
>> > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --------- 원본 메일 ---------
>> > >
>> > > *보낸사람*: Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > > *받는사람* : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> >
>> > > *날짜*: 2013년 1월 11일 금요일, 01시 16분 02초 +0900
>> > > *제목*: Re: [xmca] Activity concept
>> > > Thank you very much Goncu and Larry!
>> > >
>> > > Larry this conversation is very interesting! I though that this kind
>> > > of discussion already happened, but I wasn't able to find something
>> > > like this. And Rubinshtein is in the middle of the discussion also!!!
>> > >
>> > > Wagner
>> > >
>> > > 2013/1/10 Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> <
>> >
>> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
>> > >
>> > > >:
>> > > > Wrong site
>> > > > THIS is the specific site
>> > > >
>> > > > http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stetsenko.htm
>> > > >
>> > > > which carries on an exploration of your question
>> > > >
>> > > > Larry
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> <
>> >
>> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
>> > >>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >> Hello Wagner
>> > > >>
>> > > >> This site
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > >
>> >
>> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethicalpolitics.org%2Fseminars&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.cGE&biw=1024&bih=523&wrapid=tlif135783394963311&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=-eXuUJ-WHIOnigKHloHIDw
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I found helpful for situating this question among an intimate group
>> > > >> carrying on a conversation on this topic.
>> > > >> Larry
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu>
>> <
>> >
>> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu
>> > >>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Hello Wagner,
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> The following review that addresses the views of Vygotsky and
>> > Leont'ev
>> > > may
>> > > >>> be helpful. Best, ag
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Göncü, A., & Gauvain, M. (2011). Sociocultural Approaches to
>> > > >>> Educational Psychology: Theory, Research, and Application. In K.
>> > > Harris,
>> > > >>> J. Brophy., G. Sinatra, & J. Sweller (Eds.). APA Educational
>> > Psychology
>> > > >>> Handbook: Contributions to Education. Vol.1.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On Thu, January 10, 2013 8:26 am, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote:
>> > > >>> > Greetings and Happy New Year to all!!!
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > I may be doing a silly questions and probably someone already
>> > > answered
>> > > >>> > about this, but I searched the web for something more concise and
>> > > >>> > could not find (yet):
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > What are the differences on the concept of Activity between
>> > Vygotsky,
>> > > >>> > Leontiev and Ilyenkov?
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > I will tackle some Leontiev and Ilyenkov texts from the
>> > Marxists.org
>> > > >>> > archives and I am also reading the text "Criticisms of Vygotsky’s
>> > > >>> > concept of Activity" by Andy Blunden. But I wanted to have a
>> "large
>> > > >>> > picture view" or at least some positioning to do not get lost in
>> my
>> > > >>> > readings.
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Thank you.
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> > Wagner Luiz Schmit
>> > > >>> > __________________________________________
>> > > >>> > _____
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>> <
>> >
>> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >
>> > > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>> >
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
>> > > >>> Professor,
>> > > >>> Educational Psychology
>> > > >>> College of Education M/C 147
>> > > >>> 1040 W. Harrison St.
>> > > >>> Chicago, IL 60607
>> > > >>> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
>> > > >>> (312) 996-5259
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> __________________________________________
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>> <
>> >
>> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > >
>> > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > > <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
>> >
>> > > __________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
>> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
>> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
>> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
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>> <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
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>
>
> --
> Luísa Aires
> Universidade Aberta, Porto
> R.Amial, nº 752
> 4200-055 Porto
> laires@uab.pt
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