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Re: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
Dear All
I have nothing to add to the video translation (a very good work!). I agree
with Armando´s comments.
In what concerns the work of Emilia Ferreiro, I don’t know her theory, but
if she is a Piagetian, her theory may have deep differences when compared
to Vygotsky ;-)
Best wishes,
Luísa A.
On 12 January 2013 22:41, kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net> wrote:
> Many thanks to everybody who responded so quickly and fulsomely
> (especially to Armando). I'm ashamed to say I've never read Ferreiro, but I
> ordered "Literacy Before Schooling" and it's on the way.
>
>
>
> I too was very struck by Wagner's comments (Wagner--is that a surname or a
> given name? Should we call you Luiz?). According to the article Armando
> sent around, Ferreiro was just as much a political refugee as Freire
> himself, and the two actually appear to have worked together at one point.
> Of course, the Videla dictatorship used her work, but the same thing was
> true of Freire's. So why would she be blamed for Brazilian functionial
> illiteracy?
>
>
>
> Just on the basis of Armando's article, I can think of three reasons why
> this might happen, but they all amount to accusing her of being
> a researcher. The first is that unlike Freire she doesn't appear to be
> directly interested in teacher training. For reasons I don't understand,
> researchers are very reluctant to "do the teacher's job for her", as
> Ferreiro puts it, although very few of us get coy, shy or "too busy" when
> the government or when some commericial corporation wants to learn about
> how our work might be applied. I don't understand this, because while
> bitter experience has taught me to be very suspicious when governments and
> corporations want me to do a job for them, I have found working more
> directly with teachers immensely rewarding (I understand Freire felt pretty
> much the same way and I know Mike does).
>
>
>
> The second is that although Ferreiro doesn't believe that phonemes are
> psychologically real (it's very hard to find language researchers who still
> do) she is very interested in how drawing and spelling are distinct, in the
> moment when the child understands that drawing is a synchronic tracing of
> the graphic contours of an object while spelling is diachronic and not
> based on on a graphic-visual representation at all. Her experiments on
> three-letter 'words' in English and Spanish remind me more of Piaget's
> interest in conservation experiments and also his early clinical work
> asking questions like "Why does the moon stay up in the sky?" where the
> child cannot really bring any personal experience to bear in the answer. I
> think that BOTH Vygotsky and Freire would reply that drawing and spelling
> cannot be mechanically separated in that way, which is why so much of the
> child's early literacy is concerned with cartoons and comics. As Freire
> would say there has to be some way to get the world into the word.
>
>
>
> The third, though, is the issue that Wagner (Luiz Schmit?) raises: this
> focus on decontextualized three letter words (consonants in English and in
> the Semitic languages but VOWELS in Spanish--I bet Japanese is like
> Spanish) is invariably going to lead in the direction of phonics education,
> and of course phonics education has been, rightly or wrongly, accused with
> producing precisely the state of affairs that Wagner describes: people who
> can decode phonemes but remain functionally illiterate. It's interesting,
> though, that Wagner says Ferreiro advocates using small mnemonic pictures
> to teach letter-sound correspondances; this is approach that French
> researchers on dyslexia have taken, and of course it's the basis of many
> Chinese characters (and China remains lowest in the world in certain types
> of dyslexia).
>
>
>
> Notice that Ferreiro uses the SAME experiment that Luria uses--trying to
> get children to write before they know how--in her Little Red Riding Hood
> studies. But Luria is mostly interested in memory, while Ferreiro is trying
> to get a narrative.Vygotsky does talk about a "graphic" basis to many word
> meanings (he is trying to demonstrate that language is not a legal
> contract; that there is a 'natural history' to signs that precludes the
> Saussurean approach that his structuralist colleagues are insisting on,
> which Piaget then greatly developed). But he really is talking about WORD
> or even TEXT meanings: he's talking about the way, for example, "The early
> bird catches the worm" conjures up more of drawable (and cartoonable) image
> than "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise".
>
>
>
> I think Vygotsky sees the same layers of semiohistory that Halliday does
> (in the plenary talk I posted here some time ago). That is, man passes
> through epochs in his productive life, and so his literary products pass
> through typical genres. The format which is typical of forest life is
> literal, the proverb. The format which is more typical of farming life is
> figurative, the fable. But when we arrive at factory life, we need systems
> of great abstraction and precision--and this explains why proverbs and
> fables are subsumed as epics, and then as romances and eventually novels.
> And it is really only with modern life that the distinction Piaget between
> diachronic narrative and synchronic dialogue becomes essential. Hence the
> importance of two forms of literary "prehistory" that have no obvious
> relationship to phonemes at all: play and drawing.
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------- 원본 메일 ---------
>
> *보낸사람*: Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net>
> *받는사람* : Culture ActivityeXtended Mind <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> *날짜*: 2013년 1월 13일 일요일, 05시 04분 44초 +0900
> *제목*: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
>
> There's a Freire mongograph called "Cultural Action for Freedom" about
> the work with adults and literacy that is quite old and quite clear, I
> think.
> PG
>
> --- On Sat, 1/12/13, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> Date: Saturday, January 12, 2013, 7:11 AM
>
>
> Wagner
>
> What an interesting post. We don't know the intricacies of
> the implementation of the Freire project. Perhaps the learners were asked
> to read about what is called by Geertz "experience-far" concepts.
>
> Carol
>
> On 12 January 2013 13:47, Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
>
> > Hello Kellog,
> >
> > He is talking in a kind of mix of Spanish and Portuguese, so
> > yes, Portuguese speakers can comprehend him.
> >
> > I think that the question of who is Emilia Ferreiro is already covered.
> >
> > But one thing is important to note: Many say that the "caminho suave"
> (soft
> > way) for alphabetization proposed by Ferreiro, based on the teaching of
> the
> > relationship between letters and phonemes and with a image in the form of
> > the letter to help the child remenber, is mechanistic and led to a very
> > very serious problem we face in Brazil now: a very high percentage of
> > people with functional illiteracy. Much before Ferreiro propositions,
> > Vygotsky already criticized this kind of alphabetization, that seems to
> be
> > gathering force again with some dubious "neurological background" from
> the
> > cognitive sciences, for the lack of opportunity for the child to give
> > meaning for this.
> >
> > Many educators in Brazil "blame" Piaget and Ferreiro for the lack of
> > capacity for many Brazilians (even in the university) to comprehend a
> text,
> > they can read but can't give it a meaning and much less criticize it,
> i.e.,
> > no abstract reasoning about the text. Paulo Freire ways seems to goes in
> > the Vygotsky direction, but we must remenber also that he worked with
> adult
> > workers, not elementary school children.
> >
> > I am hyper simplifying things here, and of course there are other factors
> > to this phenomena, but this is the kind of discussion you would hear
> about
> > in these parts.
> >
> > Wagner
> >
> > 2013/1/11 kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> >
> >
> > > I wonder if I could get some help from our Latin American friends.
> > > There is this video of Freire speaking in 1992 about his relationship
> to
> > > Vygotsky:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8IQ7LlEyY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I gather that what he says is roughly this:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > a) When he first read Vygotsky, it appeared to him that Vygotsky had
> > > copied his own work! (That's a joke--he acknowledges that Vygotsky had
> > died
> > > nearly sixty years earlier)
> > >
> > > b) Vygotsky goes much further than Piaget in his understanding of
> > language
> > > acquisition.
> > >
> > > c) There is some OTHER person ("Emilia Fujera"?) who goes much further
> > > still in her scientific understanding of language acquisition but who
> > does
> > > not go nearly as far as Freire himself in the ideological/political
> > > understanding of education.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For some reason, Freire is speaking in Spanish, although I imagine a
> > > Portuguese speaker could understand him. The problem is that I can't
> > follow
> > > very well, having never really studied either language. Can somebody
> > help?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Who is "Emilia Fujera"?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > >
> > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > >
> > >
> > > --------- 원본 메일 ---------
> > >
> > > *보낸사람*: Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> >
> > > *받는사람* : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > *날짜*: 2013년 1월 11일 금요일, 01시 16분 02초 +0900
> > > *제목*: Re: [xmca] Activity concept
> > > Thank you very much Goncu and Larry!
> > >
> > > Larry this conversation is very interesting! I though that this kind
> > > of discussion already happened, but I wasn't able to find something
> > > like this. And Rubinshtein is in the middle of the discussion also!!!
> > >
> > > Wagner
> > >
> > > 2013/1/10 Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >:
> > > > Wrong site
> > > > THIS is the specific site
> > > >
> > > > http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stetsenko.htm
> > > >
> > > > which carries on an exploration of your question
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello Wagner
> > > >>
> > > >> This site
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethicalpolitics.org%2Fseminars&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.cGE&biw=1024&bih=523&wrapid=tlif135783394963311&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=-eXuUJ-WHIOnigKHloHIDw
> > > >>
> > > >> I found helpful for situating this question among an intimate group
> > > >> carrying on a conversation on this topic.
> > > >> Larry
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu
> > >>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hello Wagner,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The following review that addresses the views of Vygotsky and
> > Leont'ev
> > > may
> > > >>> be helpful. Best, ag
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Göncü, A., & Gauvain, M. (2011). Sociocultural Approaches to
> > > >>> Educational Psychology: Theory, Research, and Application. In K.
> > > Harris,
> > > >>> J. Brophy., G. Sinatra, & J. Sweller (Eds.). APA Educational
> > Psychology
> > > >>> Handbook: Contributions to Education. Vol.1.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, January 10, 2013 8:26 am, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote:
> > > >>> > Greetings and Happy New Year to all!!!
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I may be doing a silly questions and probably someone already
> > > answered
> > > >>> > about this, but I searched the web for something more concise and
> > > >>> > could not find (yet):
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > What are the differences on the concept of Activity between
> > Vygotsky,
> > > >>> > Leontiev and Ilyenkov?
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I will tackle some Leontiev and Ilyenkov texts from the
> > Marxists.org
> > > >>> > archives and I am also reading the text "Criticisms of Vygotsky’s
> > > >>> > concept of Activity" by Andy Blunden. But I wanted to have a
> "large
> > > >>> > picture view" or at least some positioning to do not get lost in
> my
> > > >>> > readings.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Thank you.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Wagner Luiz Schmit
> > > >>> > __________________________________________
> > > >>> > _____
> > > >>> > xmca mailing list
> > > >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> > > >>> Professor,
> > > >>> Educational Psychology
> > > >>> College of Education M/C 147
> > > >>> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> > > >>> Chicago, IL 60607
> > > >>> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> > > >>> (312) 996-5259
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __________________________________________
> > > >>> _____
> > > >>> xmca mailing list
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> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > __________________________________________
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> > >
> > > <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> >
> > > __________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
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--
Luísa Aires
Universidade Aberta, Porto
R.Amial, nº 752
4200-055 Porto
laires@uab.pt
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