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RE: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese



Many thanks to everybody who responded so quickly and fulsomely (especially to Armando). I'm ashamed to say I've never read Ferreiro, but I ordered "Literacy Before Schooling" and it's on the way.

 

I too was very struck by Wagner's comments (Wagner--is that a surname or a given name? Should we call you Luiz?). According to the article Armando sent around, Ferreiro was just as much a political refugee as Freire himself, and the two actually appear to have worked together at one point. Of course, the Videla dictatorship used her work, but the same thing was true of Freire's. So why would she be blamed for Brazilian functionial illiteracy?

 

Just on the basis of Armando's article, I can think of three reasons why this might happen, but they all amount to accusing her of being a researcher. The first is that unlike Freire she doesn't appear to be directly interested in teacher training. For reasons I don't understand, researchers are very reluctant to "do the teacher's job for her", as Ferreiro puts it, although very few of us get coy, shy or "too busy" when the government or when some commericial corporation wants to learn about how our work might be applied. I don't understand this, because while bitter experience has taught me to be very suspicious when governments and corporations want me to do a job for them, I have found working more directly with teachers immensely rewarding (I understand Freire felt pretty much the same way and I know Mike does).

 

The second is that although Ferreiro doesn't believe that phonemes are psychologically real (it's very hard to find language researchers who still do) she is very interested in how drawing and spelling are distinct, in the moment when the child understands that drawing is a synchronic tracing of the graphic contours of an object while spelling is diachronic and not based on on a graphic-visual representation at all. Her experiments on three-letter 'words' in English and Spanish remind me more of Piaget's interest in conservation experiments and also his early clinical work asking questions like "Why does the moon stay up in the sky?" where the child cannot really bring any personal experience to bear in the answer. I think that BOTH Vygotsky and Freire would reply that drawing and spelling cannot be mechanically separated in that way, which is why so much of the child's early literacy is concerned with cartoons and comics. As Freire would say there has to be some way to get the world into the word.

 

The third, though, is the issue that Wagner (Luiz Schmit?) raises: this focus on decontextualized three letter words (consonants in English and in the Semitic languages but VOWELS in Spanish--I bet Japanese is like Spanish) is invariably going to lead in the direction of phonics education, and of course phonics education has been, rightly or wrongly, accused with producing precisely the state of affairs that Wagner describes: people who can decode phonemes but remain functionally illiterate. It's interesting, though, that Wagner says Ferreiro advocates using small mnemonic pictures to teach letter-sound correspondances; this is approach that French researchers on dyslexia have taken, and of course it's the basis of many Chinese characters (and China remains lowest in the world in certain types of dyslexia).

 

Notice that Ferreiro uses the SAME experiment that Luria uses--trying to get children to write before they know how--in her Little Red Riding Hood studies. But Luria is mostly interested in memory, while Ferreiro is trying to get a narrative.Vygotsky does talk about a "graphic" basis to many word meanings (he is trying to demonstrate that language is not a legal contract; that there is a 'natural history' to signs that precludes the Saussurean approach that his structuralist colleagues are insisting on, which Piaget then greatly developed). But he really is talking about WORD or even TEXT meanings: he's talking about the way, for example, "The early bird catches the worm" conjures up more of drawable (and cartoonable) image than "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise".

 

I think Vygotsky sees the same layers of semiohistory that Halliday does (in the plenary talk I posted here some time ago). That is, man passes through epochs in his productive life, and so his literary products pass through typical genres. The format which is typical of forest life is literal, the proverb. The format which is more typical of farming life is figurative, the fable. But when we arrive at factory life, we need systems of great abstraction and precision--and this explains why proverbs and fables are subsumed as epics, and then as romances and eventually novels. And it is really only with modern life that the distinction Piaget between diachronic narrative and synchronic dialogue becomes essential. Hence the importance of two forms of literary "prehistory" that have no obvious relationship to phonemes at all: play and drawing.

 

David Kellogg

Hankuk University of Foreign Studies

 

 

 

--------- 원본 메일 ---------
보낸사람: Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net>
받는사람 : Culture ActivityeXtended Mind <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
날짜: 2013년 1월 13일 일요일, 05시 04분 44초 +0900
제목: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
There's a Freire mongograph called "Cultural Action for Freedom" about the work with adults and literacy that is quite old and quite clear, I think.
PG 

--- On Sat, 1/12/13, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 12, 2013, 7:11 AM


Wagner

What an interesting post.  We don't know the intricacies of
the implementation of the Freire project. Perhaps the learners were asked
to read about what is called by Geertz "experience-far" concepts.

Carol

On 12 January 2013 13:47, Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hello Kellog,
>
> He is talking in a kind of mix of Spanish and Portuguese, so
> yes, Portuguese speakers can comprehend him.
>
> I think that the question of who is Emilia Ferreiro is already covered.
>
> But one thing is important to note: Many say that the "caminho suave" (soft
> way) for alphabetization proposed by Ferreiro, based on the teaching of the
> relationship between letters and phonemes and with a image in the form of
> the letter to help the child remenber, is mechanistic and led to a very
> very serious problem we face in Brazil now: a very high percentage of
> people with functional illiteracy. Much before Ferreiro propositions,
> Vygotsky already criticized this kind of alphabetization, that seems to be
> gathering force again with some dubious "neurological background" from the
> cognitive sciences, for the lack of opportunity for the child to give
> meaning for this.
>
> Many educators in Brazil "blame" Piaget and Ferreiro for the lack of
> capacity for many Brazilians (even in the university) to comprehend a text,
> they can read but can't give it a meaning and much less criticize it, i.e.,
> no abstract reasoning about the text. Paulo Freire ways seems to goes in
> the Vygotsky direction, but we must remenber also that he worked with adult
> workers, not elementary school children.
>
> I am hyper simplifying things here, and of course there are other factors
> to this phenomena, but this is the kind of discussion you would hear about
> in these parts.
>
> Wagner
>
> 2013/1/11 kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
>
> >   I wonder if I could get some help from our Latin American friends.
> > There is this video of Freire speaking in 1992 about his relationship to
> > Vygotsky:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8IQ7LlEyY
> >
> >
> >
> > I gather that what he says is roughly this:
> >
> >
> >
> > a) When he first read Vygotsky, it appeared to him that Vygotsky had
> > copied his own work! (That's a joke--he acknowledges that Vygotsky had
> died
> > nearly sixty years earlier)
> >
> > b) Vygotsky goes much further than Piaget in his understanding of
> language
> > acquisition.
> >
> > c) There is some OTHER person ("Emilia Fujera"?) who goes much further
> > still in her scientific understanding of language acquisition but who
> does
> > not go nearly as far as Freire himself in the ideological/political
> > understanding of education.
> >
> >
> >
> > For some reason, Freire is speaking in Spanish, although I imagine a
> > Portuguese speaker could understand him. The problem is that I can't
> follow
> > very well, having never really studied either language. Can somebody
> help?
> >
> >
> >
> > Who is "Emilia Fujera"?
> >
> >
> >
> > David Kellogg
> >
> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >
> >
> > --------- 원본 메일 ---------
> >
> > *보낸사람*: Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> > *받는사람* : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > *날짜*: 2013년 1월 11일 금요일, 01시 16분 02초 +0900
> > *제목*: Re: [xmca] Activity concept
> > Thank you very much Goncu and Larry!
> >
> > Larry this conversation is very interesting! I though that this kind
> > of discussion already happened, but I wasn't able to find something
> > like this. And Rubinshtein is in the middle of the discussion also!!!
> >
> > Wagner
> >
> > 2013/1/10 Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> >
> > >:
> > > Wrong site
> > > THIS is the specific site
> > >
> > > http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stetsenko.htm
> > >
> > > which carries on an exploration of your question
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> >>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello Wagner
> > >>
> > >> This site
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethicalpolitics.org%2Fseminars&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.cGE&biw=1024&bih=523&wrapid=tlif135783394963311&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=-eXuUJ-WHIOnigKHloHIDw
> > >>
> > >> I found helpful for situating this question among an intimate group
> > >> carrying on a conversation on this topic.
> > >> Larry
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu
> >>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Hello Wagner,
> > >>>
> > >>> The following review that addresses the views of Vygotsky and
> Leont'ev
> > may
> > >>> be helpful. Best, ag
> > >>>
> > >>> Göncü, A., & Gauvain, M. (2011). Sociocultural Approaches to
> > >>> Educational Psychology: Theory, Research, and Application. In K.
> > Harris,
> > >>> J. Brophy., G. Sinatra, & J. Sweller (Eds.). APA Educational
> Psychology
> > >>> Handbook: Contributions to Education. Vol.1.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Thu, January 10, 2013 8:26 am, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote:
> > >>> > Greetings and Happy New Year to all!!!
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I may be doing a silly questions and probably someone already
> > answered
> > >>> > about this, but I searched the web for something more concise and
> > >>> > could not find (yet):
> > >>> >
> > >>> > What are the differences on the concept of Activity between
> Vygotsky,
> > >>> > Leontiev and Ilyenkov?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I will tackle some Leontiev and Ilyenkov texts from the
> Marxists.org
> > >>> > archives and I am also reading the text "Criticisms of Vygotsky’s
> > >>> > concept of Activity" by Andy Blunden. But I wanted to have a "large
> > >>> > picture view" or at least some positioning to do not get lost in my
> > >>> > readings.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Thank you.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Wagner Luiz Schmit
> > >>> > __________________________________________
> > >>> > _____
> > >>> > xmca mailing list
> > >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> > >>> Professor,
> > >>> Educational Psychology
> > >>> College of Education M/C 147
> > >>> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> > >>> Chicago, IL 60607
> > >>> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> > >>> (312) 996-5259
> > >>>
> > >>> __________________________________________
> > >>> _____
> > >>> xmca mailing list
> > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > __________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> > <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> > __________________________________________
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--
Carol A  Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
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