[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
Hello Kellog,
I must admit, I do not know very much about Ferreiro. I was in a hurry to
write and I expressed myself very badly: No, she was not to blame (at least
directly), but the government and the people that used her theory in a very
superficial way are (the same way they do with Paulo Freire and Vygotsky).
Yet her name is so associated to the phonetic method here as Vygotsky is to
ZPD (and the same way with many uses, meanings and etc).
Here is one of the images I talked about:
http://www.anos80.com.br/lembrancas/cartilhas/carimbos.jpg
I remenber my adviser Professor João Batista saying that Emilia Ferreiro
criticized Luria a lot for the lack pf precision of his data and
methodology. Maybe he enters this discussion and can be a lot more precise
than me about Ferreiro, Luria and alphabetization.
Sorry I made more mess than helped. But the problem is not only the
Phonetic method (the most used here), but I think Vygotsky went to the
heart of the problem in the "Imagination and creativity in childhood": The
teacher try to make the child use written language in the same way he does
not giving much space for the child use it in her on way and purpose. This
is aggravated by the fact that many elementary teachers in Brazil don't
like to read and write and don't use complex reading and writing in their
daily life, i.e., how can they share the social meaning of reading and
writing when they don't give it value (they say they do, but this is just
discourse)? In this way it is a lot easier to pick up a phonetic method in
a mechanic/technical way and "just do their job".
I have hard times trying to make my students, many future elementary
teachers, to read and write scientific material and even more interpreting
them.
And one more thing for consideration: literacy in a new thing for many
Brazilian families: most people grandparents didn't read and write, and for
many families only now, with the governmental programs like PROUNI and
quotas in public universities for public school students, are entering the
university.
I still have much to exercise debate complex thing without reducing it and
making lots of generalizations.
Wagner Luiz Schmit
PS: Wagner is my given name and people call me this. Luiz is my middle name
and Schmit is my family name.
2013/1/12 kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> Many thanks to everybody who responded so quickly and fulsomely
> (especially to Armando). I'm ashamed to say I've never read Ferreiro, but I
> ordered "Literacy Before Schooling" and it's on the way.
>
>
>
> I too was very struck by Wagner's comments (Wagner--is that a surname or a
> given name? Should we call you Luiz?). According to the article Armando
> sent around, Ferreiro was just as much a political refugee as Freire
> himself, and the two actually appear to have worked together at one point.
> Of course, the Videla dictatorship used her work, but the same thing was
> true of Freire's. So why would she be blamed for Brazilian functionial
> illiteracy?
>
>
>
> Just on the basis of Armando's article, I can think of three reasons why
> this might happen, but they all amount to accusing her of being
> a researcher. The first is that unlike Freire she doesn't appear to be
> directly interested in teacher training. For reasons I don't understand,
> researchers are very reluctant to "do the teacher's job for her", as
> Ferreiro puts it, although very few of us get coy, shy or "too busy" when
> the government or when some commericial corporation wants to learn about
> how our work might be applied. I don't understand this, because while
> bitter experience has taught me to be very suspicious when governments and
> corporations want me to do a job for them, I have found working more
> directly with teachers immensely rewarding (I understand Freire felt pretty
> much the same way and I know Mike does).
>
>
>
> The second is that although Ferreiro doesn't believe that phonemes are
> psychologically real (it's very hard to find language researchers who still
> do) she is very interested in how drawing and spelling are distinct, in the
> moment when the child understands that drawing is a synchronic tracing of
> the graphic contours of an object while spelling is diachronic and not
> based on on a graphic-visual representation at all. Her experiments on
> three-letter 'words' in English and Spanish remind me more of Piaget's
> interest in conservation experiments and also his early clinical work
> asking questions like "Why does the moon stay up in the sky?" where the
> child cannot really bring any personal experience to bear in the answer. I
> think that BOTH Vygotsky and Freire would reply that drawing and spelling
> cannot be mechanically separated in that way, which is why so much of the
> child's early literacy is concerned with cartoons and comics. As Freire
> would say there has to be some way to get the world into the word.
>
>
>
> The third, though, is the issue that Wagner (Luiz Schmit?) raises: this
> focus on decontextualized three letter words (consonants in English and in
> the Semitic languages but VOWELS in Spanish--I bet Japanese is like
> Spanish) is invariably going to lead in the direction of phonics education,
> and of course phonics education has been, rightly or wrongly, accused with
> producing precisely the state of affairs that Wagner describes: people who
> can decode phonemes but remain functionally illiterate. It's interesting,
> though, that Wagner says Ferreiro advocates using small mnemonic pictures
> to teach letter-sound correspondances; this is approach that French
> researchers on dyslexia have taken, and of course it's the basis of many
> Chinese characters (and China remains lowest in the world in certain types
> of dyslexia).
>
>
>
> Notice that Ferreiro uses the SAME experiment that Luria uses--trying to
> get children to write before they know how--in her Little Red Riding Hood
> studies. But Luria is mostly interested in memory, while Ferreiro is trying
> to get a narrative.Vygotsky does talk about a "graphic" basis to many word
> meanings (he is trying to demonstrate that language is not a legal
> contract; that there is a 'natural history' to signs that precludes the
> Saussurean approach that his structuralist colleagues are insisting on,
> which Piaget then greatly developed). But he really is talking about WORD
> or even TEXT meanings: he's talking about the way, for example, "The early
> bird catches the worm" conjures up more of drawable (and cartoonable) image
> than "Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise".
>
>
>
> I think Vygotsky sees the same layers of semiohistory that Halliday does
> (in the plenary talk I posted here some time ago). That is, man passes
> through epochs in his productive life, and so his literary products pass
> through typical genres. The format which is typical of forest life is
> literal, the proverb. The format which is more typical of farming life is
> figurative, the fable. But when we arrive at factory life, we need systems
> of great abstraction and precision--and this explains why proverbs and
> fables are subsumed as epics, and then as romances and eventually novels.
> And it is really only with modern life that the distinction Piaget between
> diachronic narrative and synchronic dialogue becomes essential. Hence the
> importance of two forms of literary "prehistory" that have no obvious
> relationship to phonemes at all: play and drawing.
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------- 원본 메일 ---------
>
> *보낸사람*: Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net>
> *받는사람* : Culture ActivityeXtended Mind <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> *날짜*: 2013년 1월 13일 일요일, 05시 04분 44초 +0900
> *제목*: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
>
> There's a Freire mongograph called "Cultural Action for Freedom" about
> the work with adults and literacy that is quite old and quite clear, I
> think.
> PG
>
> --- On Sat, 1/12/13, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
> From: Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Help With Spanish/Portuguese
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> Date: Saturday, January 12, 2013, 7:11 AM
>
>
> Wagner
>
> What an interesting post. We don't know the intricacies of
> the implementation of the Freire project. Perhaps the learners were asked
> to read about what is called by Geertz "experience-far" concepts.
>
> Carol
>
> On 12 January 2013 13:47, Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
>
> > Hello Kellog,
> >
> > He is talking in a kind of mix of Spanish and Portuguese, so
> > yes, Portuguese speakers can comprehend him.
> >
> > I think that the question of who is Emilia Ferreiro is already covered.
> >
> > But one thing is important to note: Many say that the "caminho suave"
> (soft
> > way) for alphabetization proposed by Ferreiro, based on the teaching of
> the
> > relationship between letters and phonemes and with a image in the form of
> > the letter to help the child remenber, is mechanistic and led to a very
> > very serious problem we face in Brazil now: a very high percentage of
> > people with functional illiteracy. Much before Ferreiro propositions,
> > Vygotsky already criticized this kind of alphabetization, that seems to
> be
> > gathering force again with some dubious "neurological background" from
> the
> > cognitive sciences, for the lack of opportunity for the child to give
> > meaning for this.
> >
> > Many educators in Brazil "blame" Piaget and Ferreiro for the lack of
> > capacity for many Brazilians (even in the university) to comprehend a
> text,
> > they can read but can't give it a meaning and much less criticize it,
> i.e.,
> > no abstract reasoning about the text. Paulo Freire ways seems to goes in
> > the Vygotsky direction, but we must remenber also that he worked with
> adult
> > workers, not elementary school children.
> >
> > I am hyper simplifying things here, and of course there are other factors
> > to this phenomena, but this is the kind of discussion you would hear
> about
> > in these parts.
> >
> > Wagner
> >
> > 2013/1/11 kellogg <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> >
> >
> > > I wonder if I could get some help from our Latin American friends.
> > > There is this video of Freire speaking in 1992 about his relationship
> to
> > > Vygotsky:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8IQ7LlEyY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I gather that what he says is roughly this:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > a) When he first read Vygotsky, it appeared to him that Vygotsky had
> > > copied his own work! (That's a joke--he acknowledges that Vygotsky had
> > died
> > > nearly sixty years earlier)
> > >
> > > b) Vygotsky goes much further than Piaget in his understanding of
> > language
> > > acquisition.
> > >
> > > c) There is some OTHER person ("Emilia Fujera"?) who goes much further
> > > still in her scientific understanding of language acquisition but who
> > does
> > > not go nearly as far as Freire himself in the ideological/political
> > > understanding of education.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For some reason, Freire is speaking in Spanish, although I imagine a
> > > Portuguese speaker could understand him. The problem is that I can't
> > follow
> > > very well, having never really studied either language. Can somebody
> > help?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Who is "Emilia Fujera"?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > >
> > > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> > >
> > >
> > > --------- 원본 메일 ---------
> > >
> > > *보낸사람*: Wagner Luiz Schmit <wagner.schmit@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=wagner.schmit@gmail.com>
> >
> > > *받는사람* : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > *날짜*: 2013년 1월 11일 금요일, 01시 16분 02초 +0900
> > > *제목*: Re: [xmca] Activity concept
> > > Thank you very much Goncu and Larry!
> > >
> > > Larry this conversation is very interesting! I though that this kind
> > > of discussion already happened, but I wasn't able to find something
> > > like this. And Rubinshtein is in the middle of the discussion also!!!
> > >
> > > Wagner
> > >
> > > 2013/1/10 Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >:
> > > > Wrong site
> > > > THIS is the specific site
> > > >
> > > > http://ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/stetsenko.htm
> > > >
> > > > which carries on an exploration of your question
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lpscholar2@gmail.com
> > >>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello Wagner
> > > >>
> > > >> This site
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ethicalpolitics.org%2Fseminars&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.cGE&biw=1024&bih=523&wrapid=tlif135783394963311&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&ei=-eXuUJ-WHIOnigKHloHIDw
> > > >>
> > > >> I found helpful for situating this question among an intimate group
> > > >> carrying on a conversation on this topic.
> > > >> Larry
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=goncu@uic.edu
> > >>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hello Wagner,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The following review that addresses the views of Vygotsky and
> > Leont'ev
> > > may
> > > >>> be helpful. Best, ag
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Göncü, A., & Gauvain, M. (2011). Sociocultural Approaches to
> > > >>> Educational Psychology: Theory, Research, and Application. In K.
> > > Harris,
> > > >>> J. Brophy., G. Sinatra, & J. Sweller (Eds.). APA Educational
> > Psychology
> > > >>> Handbook: Contributions to Education. Vol.1.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Thu, January 10, 2013 8:26 am, Wagner Luiz Schmit wrote:
> > > >>> > Greetings and Happy New Year to all!!!
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I may be doing a silly questions and probably someone already
> > > answered
> > > >>> > about this, but I searched the web for something more concise and
> > > >>> > could not find (yet):
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > What are the differences on the concept of Activity between
> > Vygotsky,
> > > >>> > Leontiev and Ilyenkov?
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > I will tackle some Leontiev and Ilyenkov texts from the
> > Marxists.org
> > > >>> > archives and I am also reading the text "Criticisms of Vygotsky’s
> > > >>> > concept of Activity" by Andy Blunden. But I wanted to have a
> "large
> > > >>> > picture view" or at least some positioning to do not get lost in
> my
> > > >>> > readings.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Thank you.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Wagner Luiz Schmit
> > > >>> > __________________________________________
> > > >>> > _____
> > > >>> > xmca mailing list
> > > >>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > >>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> > > >>> Professor,
> > > >>> Educational Psychology
> > > >>> College of Education M/C 147
> > > >>> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> > > >>> Chicago, IL 60607
> > > >>> http://education.uic.edu/epsy/browseour%20faculty.cfm
> > > >>> (312) 996-5259
> > > >>>
> > > >>> __________________________________________
> > > >>> _____
> > > >>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> <
> >
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <kellogg59@hanmail.net<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> >
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carol A Macdonald Ph D (Edin)
> Developmental psycholinguist: EMBED
> Academic, Researcher, Writer and Editor
> Honorary Research Fellow: Department of Linguistics, Unisa
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
>
> <kellogg59@hanmail.net>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca