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RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren



I don't want to get too bogged down in this discussion, but I've been watching Stephen Hawkings' Into the Universe on the Discovery channel <http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/stephen-hawking/>. Hawking has virtually no muscle-moving capacity--only his eyes, as far as I can tell. His speech is produced through a computer, and it sounds like a generic phone answering machine's voice, i.e., mechanical, clunky, disjointed. Not too pretty. But what he says is pretty important. 

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2012 4:04 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren

Huw,
So I may know what your position is; do you agree that the sounds of our speech, simply as sounds, removed from words, affect us? If so, how? 

	Joseph

On Jun 5, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:

> On 5 June 2012 22:43, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> 
>> Huw,
>> I am referring to the influence upon persons by the deep structure of 
>> spoken-word language - the relationship between the sounds of words 
>> and that to which they refer -. The personal intellectual activity 
>> that some participate in, using words as thinking facilitators, is 
>> the realm of the few, the ones who have the time and motivation to do 
>> so, not the majority of those of us who are struggling to make ends 
>> meet. The harassed masses typically do not have much perceived 
>> opportunity to engage in "extracurricular" activities.
>>       The affect upon us of our language is automatic and constant, 
>> while the understandings we achieve by our deliberate reasoning comes 
>> to us only by our efforts.
>>       I am not arguing against free will, but rather saying that 
>> whatever impinges on our perspective, - especially whatever impinges 
>> strongly on it -, should not be unknown to us. For our survival, we 
>> need to understand human culture.
>> 
>>       Joseph
>> 
>> 
> This belongs under a separate email thread, Joseph.
> 
> Have you looked at Halliday's writing?  "The Language of Early Childhood"
> covers Haliday's consideration of developmental functions in language 
> use which may be a good point of departure for advocating your own 
> line of inquiry.
> 
> Huw
> 
> 
>> 
>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>> 
>> On 5 June 2012 04:56, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Dear Huw:
>>>> Seems I was misunderstood. The fact that there are deaf people does 
>>>> not make a fly in the ointment. The culture is established by those 
>>>> who do hear, - the 99.99% -. How do you imagine/think spoken-word 
>>>> language influences human world-view?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I imagine that one acquires a skill in construing, which is 
>>> reflected in questions, that one learns an etiquette: one learns how 
>>> to cultivate a curiosity in self and others.
>>> 
>>> Greg,
>>> 
>>> Re your Montreal question, did you have any thoughts around the 
>>> distribution of appreciating different problems in the process of 
>>> emerging roles?  On a smaller, and perhaps simpler, scale I recall 
>>> situations where problems had been setup for children to stumble 
>>> upon, but that were seemingly not registered by them.  A difficult 
>>> problem left standing would amount to... what?  A conversation and vocabulary around site boundaries?
>>> 
>>> The suggestion that  'communication is the "site and surface" of 
>>> organizations' seems productive, though I'm not taking this as 
>>> comprehensive, rather as a reference to communicational exchange. If 
>>> we want to be comprehensive then I think we need to include the 
>>> organisational behaviour within the circumference of communication.
>>> 
>>> Huw
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>              Joseph
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> They're of no consequence for those deaf to reason.  ;)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Huw
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4 June 2012 10:53, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> And here's about deaf-blind people:
>>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/****archive/meshcheryakov/****
>>>>>> awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryak
>>>>>> ov/**awakening/index.htm>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.
>>>>> htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/meshcheryakov/awakening/index.
>>>>> htm>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to Gallaudet University (which is for deaf people),
>>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/****Demographics/deaf-US.php<http:
>>>>>>> //research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://r
>>>>>> esearch.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> There are a number of listings of deaf people of influence, e.g.,
>>>>>>> http://www.start-american-**
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> sign-language.com/famous-deaf-****people.html<http://sign-languag
>>>>>> e.com/famous-deaf-**people.html>
>>>> <
>>>> http://www.start-american-**sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.
>>>> html<http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/famous-deaf-people
>>>> .html>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-****learn/documents/****PeopleWhoAreDeaf
>>>>> .pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDea
>>>>> f.pdf>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pd
>>>>>> f<http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/documents/PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wik
>>>>> ipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wiki
>>>>>> pedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.deafpeople.com/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu 
>>>>>> <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:12 PM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>> What percentage of any population is deaf and what influence do 
>>>>>>> they exert upon the world-view of their society?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>             Joseph
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I also wonder, what about deaf people?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Vera John-Steiner
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM
>>>>>>>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph
>>>>>>>> I wonder whether the ultimate finality of the word--"everything 
>>>>>>>> is relative to the word"--provides a too narrow, monistic view.
>>>>>>>> Euclidean geometry is rich in proofs which are presented 
>>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> visual
>>>> 
>>>>> abstraction. These can be explained verbally but their persuasive
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> power is
>>>> 
>>>>> visual.
>>>>>>>> This is an interesting though wandering discussion from toes to
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Euclid.
>>>> 
>>>>> Vera
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>> 
>>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 3:32 PM
>>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nothing communicates as profoundly as vocal sounds, - motions 
>>>>>>>> of the human body -. Everything is named, - identified -, by 
>>>>>>>> sounds made by
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> our
>>>> 
>>>>> body. Our own body-emotional goings on is the currency by which 
>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> else is
>>>> 
>>>>> valued. We relate to our world with our word.
>>>>>>>> Everything is reletive to the word. The "final word" on 
>>>>>>>> anything IS
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> word.
>>>>>>>> The only handle we have on the meaning of our world is the 
>>>>>>>> effect on
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> us
>>>> 
>>>>> of the sounds of our words. We can prove nothing and can only feel 
>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> vocal sounds for information of how we are affected by things. 
>>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> takes
>>>> 
>>>>> different words to communicate different information. Bear in mind
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> that
>>>> 
>>>>> words are fundamentally sounds and secondarily, referential tools.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When we
>>>> 
>>>>> refer to a thing, the referential tool is between ourselves and 
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>> 
>>>>> We perceive and are affected by the tool - the word - first and
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> foremost
>>>> 
>>>>> and then also by the thought of the referred-to thing. 
>>>>> Subliminally,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> the
>>>> 
>>>>> word defines the thing:
>>>>>>>> Consciously, the thing defines the word.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>             Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Anyone out there know much about Francois Cooren or the 
>>>>>>>> Montreal
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> School
>>>> 
>>>>> of Organizational Communication?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As for the former, Cooren's book Action and Agency in Dialogue asks:
>>>>>>>>> "What if human interactants were not the only ones to be 
>>>>>>>>> considered, paraphrasing Austin (1962), as "doing things with 
>>>>>>>>> words"? That is,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> what if
>>>> 
>>>>> other "things" could also be granted the status of agents in a
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> dialogical
>>>> 
>>>>> situation?"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As for the latter, the MSOC is characterized by wikipedia as:
>>>>>>>>> "taking communication as the "site and surface" of 
>>>>>>>>> organizations, meaning that the latter emerge from and are 
>>>>>>>>> maintained by
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> communication
>>>> 
>>>>> processes."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Both of these seem to be very important points that, I 
>>>>>>>>> thought, articulate well with recent XMCA conversations.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any insight?
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps a recommendation?
>>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of 
>>>>>>>>> Comparative
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Human
>>>> 
>>>>> Cognition Department of Communication University of California, 
>>>>> San
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Diego
>>>> 
>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/****GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.
>>>>> edu/**GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia
>>>>>>>> .edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>>> /mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>> u/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/m
>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> ailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**-
>>>>>> -**
>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>>> Joint Editor MCA: 
>>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/****toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfon
>>>>>> line.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonlin
>>>>> e.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>> <
>>>>>> 
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/ma
>>>>> ilman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
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>> 
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