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Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren

To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 23:06:01 +0100
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On 5 June 2012 22:43, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:

> Huw,
> I am referring to the influence upon persons by the deep structure of
> spoken-word language - the relationship between the sounds of words and
> that to which they refer -. The personal intellectual activity that some
> participate in, using words as thinking facilitators, is the realm of the
> few, the ones who have the time and motivation to do so, not the majority
> of those of us who are struggling to make ends meet. The harassed masses
> typically do not have much perceived opportunity to engage in
> "extracurricular" activities.
>        The affect upon us of our language is automatic and constant, while
> the understandings we achieve by our deliberate reasoning comes to us only
> by our efforts.
>        I am not arguing against free will, but rather saying that whatever
> impinges on our perspective, - especially whatever impinges strongly on it
> -, should not be unknown to us. For our survival, we need to understand
> human culture.
>
>        Joseph
>
>
This belongs under a separate email thread, Joseph.

Have you looked at Halliday's writing?  "The Language of Early Childhood"
covers Haliday's consideration of developmental functions in language use
which may be a good point of departure for advocating your own line of
inquiry.

Huw


>
> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 AM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>
>  On 5 June 2012 04:56, Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dear Huw:
>>> Seems I was misunderstood. The fact that there are deaf people does not
>>> make a fly in the ointment. The culture is established by those who do
>>> hear, - the 99.99% -. How do you imagine/think spoken-word language
>>> influences human world-view?
>>>
>>>
>> I imagine that one acquires a skill in construing, which is reflected in
>> questions, that one learns an etiquette: one learns how to cultivate a
>> curiosity in self and others.
>>
>> Greg,
>>
>> Re your Montreal question, did you have any thoughts around the
>> distribution of appreciating different problems in the process of emerging
>> roles?  On a smaller, and perhaps simpler, scale I recall situations where
>> problems had been setup for children to stumble upon, but that were
>> seemingly not registered by them.  A difficult problem left standing would
>> amount to... what?  A conversation and vocabulary around site boundaries?
>>
>> The suggestion that  'communication is the "site and surface" of
>> organizations' seems productive, though I'm not taking this as
>> comprehensive, rather as a reference to communicational exchange. If we
>> want to be comprehensive then I think we need to include the
>> organisational
>> behaviour within the circumference of communication.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>>
>>
>>>               Joseph
>>>
>>> On Jun 4, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Huw Lloyd wrote:
>>>
>>>  They're of no consequence for those deaf to reason.  ;)
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>> On 4 June 2012 10:53, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  And here's about deaf-blind people:
>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/****archive/meshcheryakov/****
>>>>> awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.htm>
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/meshcheryakov/**awakening/index.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/meshcheryakov/awakening/index.htm>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  According to Gallaudet University (which is for deaf people),
>>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/****Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://research.gallaudet.edu/**Demographics/deaf-US.php<http://research.gallaudet.edu/Demographics/deaf-US.php>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> There are a number of listings of deaf people of influence, e.g.,
>>>>>> http://www.start-american-**
>>>>>>
>>>>> sign-language.com/famous-deaf-****people.html<http://sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.html>
>>> <
>>> http://www.start-american-**sign-language.com/famous-deaf-**people.html<http://www.start-american-sign-language.com/famous-deaf-people.html>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-****learn/documents/****PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.op97.org/teach-**learn/documents/**PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf<http://www.op97.org/teach-learn/documents/PeopleWhoAreDeaf.pdf>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**List_of_deaf_people<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaf_people>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> http://www.deafpeople.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.**
>>>>>>
>>>>> ucsd.edu<xmca-bounces@weber.**ucsd.edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>>]
>>>
>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 6:12 PM
>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>> What percentage of any population is deaf and what influence do they
>>>>>> exert upon the world-view of their society?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>              Joseph
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 3, 2012, at 3:00 PM, Peter Smagorinsky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I also wonder, what about deaf people?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>
>>>> On Behalf Of Vera John-Steiner
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 5:54 PM
>>>>>>> To: 'eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity'
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joseph
>>>>>>> I wonder whether the ultimate finality of the word--"everything is
>>>>>>> relative to the word"--provides a too narrow, monistic view.
>>>>>>> Euclidean geometry is rich in proofs which are presented through
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> visual
>>>
>>>> abstraction. These can be explained verbally but their persuasive
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> power is
>>>
>>>> visual.
>>>>>>> This is an interesting though wandering discussion from toes to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Euclid.
>>>
>>>> Vera
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>
>>>> On Behalf Of Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 3:32 PM
>>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nothing communicates as profoundly as vocal sounds, - motions of the
>>>>>>> human body -. Everything is named, - identified -, by sounds made by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> our
>>>
>>>> body. Our own body-emotional goings on is the currency by which all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> else is
>>>
>>>> valued. We relate to our world with our word.
>>>>>>> Everything is reletive to the word. The "final word" on anything IS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> word.
>>>>>>> The only handle we have on the meaning of our world is the effect on
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> us
>>>
>>>> of the sounds of our words. We can prove nothing and can only feel our
>>>>>>> vocal sounds for information of how we are affected by things. It
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> takes
>>>
>>>> different words to communicate different information. Bear in mind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>
>>>> words are fundamentally sounds and secondarily, referential tools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we
>>>
>>>> refer to a thing, the referential tool is between ourselves and the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> thing.
>>>
>>>> We perceive and are affected by the tool - the word - first and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> foremost
>>>
>>>> and then also by the thought of the referred-to thing. Subliminally,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>
>>>> word defines the thing:
>>>>>>> Consciously, the thing defines the word.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>              Joseph Gilbert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Greg Thompson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Anyone out there know much about Francois Cooren or the Montreal
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> School
>>>
>>>> of Organizational Communication?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the former, Cooren's book Action and Agency in Dialogue asks:
>>>>>>>> "What if human interactants were not the only ones to be considered,
>>>>>>>> paraphrasing Austin (1962), as "doing things with words"? That is,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what if
>>>
>>>> other "things" could also be granted the status of agents in a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dialogical
>>>
>>>> situation?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the latter, the MSOC is characterized by wikipedia as:
>>>>>>>> "taking communication as the "site and surface" of organizations,
>>>>>>>> meaning that the latter emerge from and are maintained by
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> communication
>>>
>>>> processes."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both of these seem to be very important points that, I thought,
>>>>>>>> articulate well with recent XMCA conversations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyone have any insight?
>>>>>>>> Perhaps a recommendation?
>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>> Sanford I. Berman Post-Doctoral Scholar Laboratory of Comparative
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Human
>>>
>>>> Cognition Department of Communication University of California, San
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Diego
>>>
>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/****GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://ucsd.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
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>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>>> _____
>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>>> _____
>>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------**--**
>>>>> ------------
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>>> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/****toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________****____________
>>>>> _____
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/****listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca>
>>>>> <
>>>>>
>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>> >
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  ______________________________**____________
>>>> _____
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>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**____________
>>> _____
>>> xmca mailing list
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>>>
>>>  ______________________________**____________
>> _____
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>
> ______________________________**____________
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Follow-Ups:
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>

References:
- [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Greg Thompson <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: "Vera John-Steiner" <vygotsky@unm.edu>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- RE: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Francois Cooren
  - From: Joseph Gilbert <joeg4us@roadrunner.com>

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