Re: [xmca] For the musicians

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi All

Or, look at some other You-tube clips about the same child. (Thanks to a
friend
who was seeking to answer the question I asked about how we might know more
about the presence or absence of a TV prompter).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprmkCuyEWo&feature=related
A short video feature by Sean King (www.seananthonymedia.com) about Jonathan
Okseniuk's debut performance with Chamber Orchestra Kremlin, which took
place in the Torrance (CA) Arts Center in February 2011.

mike


On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>wrote:

> Look carefully David and I think he is looking* into himself* a lot of the
> time.  As Steve points out, he is also anticipating what comes next.
>
> Also, over centuries we have amazing examples of precosity (?sp) in music:
> would you deny Mozart his first concerto at 7? But I don't know if he was
> picking his nose as he wrote it...
>
> I myself am very musical and it was already apparent by the time i did my
> Grade 1 exam--and continued. Perhaps I should send you my interpretation of
> some of the slow movements of Beethoven's  sonatoes   :-))  Perhaps this is
> why I was so excited and also fall off my chair at the end when he loses his
> baton. I am already primed.
>
> But thank you for your detailed response: we have much to learn from it.
>
> Carol
>
> On 26 October 2011 04:50, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Any way to find out, David, about the other TV?
>> mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe
>> the
>> > boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
>> >
>> > His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for
>> the
>> > most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even when
>> they
>> > actually say things.
>> >
>> > For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
>> > Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
>> >
>> > So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
>> > watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
>> > imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there
>> (e.g.
>> > when he falls off the podium).
>> >
>> > This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and it
>> > also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a
>> particular
>> > place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
>> > creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be
>> those
>> > from the outside).
>> >
>> > Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
>> > spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really
>> spoils
>> > is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
>> > (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with
>> cannot
>> > seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
>> >
>> > Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very much
>> > like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are much
>> > like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in
>> America.
>> > I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more direct
>> and
>> > immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
>> >
>> > I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
>> > responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality". After
>> many
>> > years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she
>> concluded
>> > that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
>> > enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
>> > mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
>> > musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it),
>> but
>> > there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any
>> where
>> > else that I can see.
>> >
>> > It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what
>> Vygotsky
>> > calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves an
>> > imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the goal
>> as
>> > well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal) only
>> > enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it
>> understandable
>> > and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
>> >
>> > At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing
>> (Chapter
>> > Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn to
>> > read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
>> > alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters and
>> > make words out of them, but they are not taught written language."
>> Interestingly,
>> > he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:******
>> >
>> > ** **
>>
>> >
>> > "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
>> > piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to strike
>> the
>> > keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence of
>> the
>> > music himself." (1978: 105-106)****
>> >
>> > ** **
>>
>> > I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly
>> like
>> > Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of
>> the
>> > music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
>> > Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the little
>> > boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
>> > inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may be
>> > even truer than she supposes.
>> >
>> > David Kellogg
>> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On *Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
>> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
>> >
>> >
>> > Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of
>> perezhivanie, I
>> > suspect,
>> > Steve.
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com
>> <http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>>
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor,
>> and
>> > he
>> > > is THREE!  I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so
>> many
>> > > responses.
>> > > Carol
>> > >
>> > > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stevegabosch@me.com>>
>>
>>  > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that watching
>> > the
>> > > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am very
>> > fond
>> > > of.
>> > > >  I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music
>> through
>> > > his
>> > > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes -
>> > for
>> > > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and
>> his
>> > > arms
>> > > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
>> > > moments,
>> > > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his
>> own
>> > > > determination and enthusiasm.  A great reminder to listen to,
>> > appreciate
>> > > and
>> > > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
>> > > >
>> > > > - Steve
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi again,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
>> > > "That's
>> > > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you
>> meant
>> > by
>> > > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about
>> the
>> > > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
>> > watched
>> > > >> it.
>> > > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
>> > > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily be
>> > > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has never
>> > been
>> > > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own
>> experiences
>> > > and
>> > > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other
>> equally
>> > > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and interpretations.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or
>> yours?
>> > I'd
>> > > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional
>> experience)
>> > as
>> > > >> you
>> > > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences
>> (with
>> > > >> music,
>> > > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
>> > > things,
>> > > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What resonates
>> > with
>> > > >> you
>> > > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
>> > perezhivanie?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Cheers,
>> > > >> Helen
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <
>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=helen.grimmett@monash.edu>
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
>> > could
>> > > >>> not
>> > > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions in
>> > the
>> > > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing
>> Carol.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Cheers,
>> > > >>> Helen
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>>
>>  > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole movement.
>> > >  Watch
>> > > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
>> > > >>>> orchestrating it.  It doesn't say, but perhaps  his father is a
>> > > >>>> conductor.
>> > > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
>> > > >>>> line/critical
>> > > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day.  I hope it makes yours.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Carol
>> > > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
>> > > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> --
>> > > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
>> > > >>>> Carol's motto.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
>> > > >>>> Wits School of Education
>> > > >>>> Research Fellow*
>> > > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
>> > > >>>> *
>> > > >>>> ______________________________**____________
>> > > >>>> _____
>> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
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>> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> --
>> > > >>> Helen Grimmett
>> > > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
>> > > >>> Faculty of Education
>> > > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Helen Grimmett
>> > > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
>> > > >> Faculty of Education
>> > > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
>> > > >> ______________________________**____________
>> > > >> _____
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>> > > >
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>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
>> > > Carol's motto.
>> > >
>> > > *Visiting Lecturer
>> > > Wits School of Education
>> > > Research Fellow*
>> > > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
>> > > *
>> > > __________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> Carol's motto.
>
> *Visiting Lecturer
> Wits School of Education
> Research Fellow*
> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> *
>
>
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