Re: [xmca] For the musicians

[Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>]

Look carefully David and I think he is looking* into himself* a lot of the
time.  As Steve points out, he is also anticipating what comes next.

Also, over centuries we have amazing examples of precosity (?sp) in music:
would you deny Mozart his first concerto at 7? But I don't know if he was
picking his nose as he wrote it...

I myself am very musical and it was already apparent by the time i did my
Grade 1 exam--and continued. Perhaps I should send you my interpretation of
some of the slow movements of Beethoven's  sonatoes   :-))  Perhaps this is
why I was so excited and also fall off my chair at the end when he loses his
baton. I am already primed.

But thank you for your detailed response: we have much to learn from it.

Carol

On 26 October 2011 04:50, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Any way to find out, David, about the other TV?
> mike
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe
> the
> > boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
> >
> > His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for
> the
> > most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even when
> they
> > actually say things.
> >
> > For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
> > Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
> >
> > So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
> > watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
> > imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there
> (e.g.
> > when he falls off the podium).
> >
> > This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and it
> > also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a
> particular
> > place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
> > creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be those
> > from the outside).
> >
> > Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
> > spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really
> spoils
> > is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
> > (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with
> cannot
> > seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
> >
> > Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very much
> > like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are much
> > like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in
> America.
> > I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more direct
> and
> > immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
> >
> > I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
> > responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality". After
> many
> > years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she
> concluded
> > that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
> > enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
> > mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
> > musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it), but
> > there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any where
> > else that I can see.
> >
> > It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what
> Vygotsky
> > calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves an
> > imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the goal
> as
> > well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal) only
> > enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it understandable
> > and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
> >
> > At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing
> (Chapter
> > Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn to
> > read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
> > alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters and
> > make words out of them, but they are not taught written language."
> Interestingly,
> > he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:******
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
> > piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to strike
> the
> > keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence of
> the
> > music himself." (1978: 105-106)****
> >
> > ** **
> > I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly like
> > Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of the
> > music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
> > Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the little
> > boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
> > inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may be
> > even truer than she supposes.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
> >
> >
> > --- On *Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
> >
> >
> > Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of perezhivanie,
> I
> > suspect,
> > Steve.
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<
> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor,
> and
> > he
> > > is THREE!  I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so
> many
> > > responses.
> > > Carol
> > >
> > > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<
> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stevegabosch@me.com>>
>  > wrote:
> > >
> > > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that watching
> > the
> > > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am very
> > fond
> > > of.
> > > >  I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music
> through
> > > his
> > > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes -
> > for
> > > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and his
> > > arms
> > > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
> > > moments,
> > > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his own
> > > > determination and enthusiasm.  A great reminder to listen to,
> > appreciate
> > > and
> > > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
> > > >
> > > > - Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi again,
> > > >>
> > > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
> > > "That's
> > > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you
> meant
> > by
> > > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about
> the
> > > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
> > watched
> > > >> it.
> > > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
> > > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily be
> > > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has never
> > been
> > > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own
> experiences
> > > and
> > > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other
> equally
> > > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and interpretations.
> > > >>
> > > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or yours?
> > I'd
> > > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional
> experience)
> > as
> > > >> you
> > > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences (with
> > > >> music,
> > > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
> > > things,
> > > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What resonates
> > with
> > > >> you
> > > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
> > perezhivanie?
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >> Helen
> > > >>
> > > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@monash.edu
> <http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=helen.grimmett@monash.edu>
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
> > could
> > > >>> not
> > > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions in
> > the
> > > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing Carol.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Cheers,
> > > >>> Helen
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<
> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>  > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole movement.
> > >  Watch
> > > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
> > > >>>> orchestrating it.  It doesn't say, but perhaps  his father is a
> > > >>>> conductor.
> > > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
> > > >>>> line/critical
> > > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day.  I hope it makes yours.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Carol
> > > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
> > > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --
> > > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > > >>>> Carol's motto.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
> > > >>>> Wits School of Education
> > > >>>> Research Fellow*
> > > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > > >>>> *
> > > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> > > >>>> _____
> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Helen Grimmett
> > > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > > >>> Faculty of Education
> > > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Helen Grimmett
> > > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > > >> Faculty of Education
> > > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > > >> ______________________________**____________
> > > >> _____
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > > Carol's motto.
> > >
> > > *Visiting Lecturer
> > > Wits School of Education
> > > Research Fellow*
> > > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > > *
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-- 
Be mindful. Regret nothing.
Carol's motto.

*Visiting Lecturer
Wits School of Education
Research Fellow*
*Linguistics Dept: Unisa
*
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