Re: [xmca] For the musicians

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Any way to find out, David, about the other TV?
mike


On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:

> I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe the
> boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
>
> His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for the
> most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even when they
> actually say things.
>
> For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
> Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
>
> So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
> watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
> imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there (e.g.
> when he falls off the podium).
>
> This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and it
> also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a particular
> place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
> creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be those
> from the outside).
>
> Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
> spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really spoils
> is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
> (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with cannot
> seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
>
> Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very much
> like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are much
> like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in America.
> I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more direct and
> immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
>
> I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
> responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality". After many
> years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she concluded
> that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
> enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
> mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
> musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it), but
> there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any where
> else that I can see.
>
> It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what Vygotsky
> calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves an
> imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the goal as
> well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal) only
> enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it understandable
> and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
>
> At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing (Chapter
> Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn to
> read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
> alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters and
> make words out of them, but they are not taught written language." Interestingly,
> he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:******
>
> ** **
>
> "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
> piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to strike the
> keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence of the
> music himself." (1978: 105-106)****
>
> ** **
> I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly like
> Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of the
> music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
> Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the little
> boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
> inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may be
> even truer than she supposes.
>
> David Kellogg
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
>
>
> Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of perezhivanie, I
> suspect,
> Steve.
> mike
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
>
> > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor, and
> he
> > is THREE!  I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so many
> > responses.
> > Carol
> >
> > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stevegabosch@me.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that watching
> the
> > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am very
> fond
> > of.
> > >  I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music through
> > his
> > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes -
> for
> > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and his
> > arms
> > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
> > moments,
> > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his own
> > > determination and enthusiasm.  A great reminder to listen to,
> appreciate
> > and
> > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
> > >
> > > - Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi again,
> > >>
> > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
> > "That's
> > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you meant
> by
> > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about the
> > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
> watched
> > >> it.
> > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
> > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily be
> > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has never
> been
> > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own experiences
> > and
> > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other equally
> > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and interpretations.
> > >>
> > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or yours?
> I'd
> > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional experience)
> as
> > >> you
> > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences (with
> > >> music,
> > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
> > things,
> > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What resonates
> with
> > >> you
> > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
> perezhivanie?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Helen
> > >>
> > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <helen.grimmett@monash.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=helen.grimmett@monash.edu>
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
> could
> > >>> not
> > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions in
> the
> > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing Carol.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Helen
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole movement.
> >  Watch
> > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
> > >>>> orchestrating it.  It doesn't say, but perhaps  his father is a
> > >>>> conductor.
> > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
> > >>>> line/critical
> > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day.  I hope it makes yours.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Carol
> > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
> > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > >>>> Carol's motto.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
> > >>>> Wits School of Education
> > >>>> Research Fellow*
> > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > >>>> *
> > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> > >>>> _____
> > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Helen Grimmett
> > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > >>> Faculty of Education
> > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Helen Grimmett
> > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
> > >> Faculty of Education
> > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
> > >> ______________________________**____________
> > >> _____
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >>
> > >
> > > ______________________________**____________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> > Carol's motto.
> >
> > *Visiting Lecturer
> > Wits School of Education
> > Research Fellow*
> > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> > *
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca