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Re: [xmca] For the musicians
I don't think the other youtube clips really solve the narrow question of whether or not there is a TV monitor that the little boy is imitating. They show a very different type of performance (and a different type of imitation). I think the difference is not simply decorum. When Jonathan conducts "Hungarian dances" he is MUCH more interested in tempo and much less interested in dynamics (that is, changes in the volume of sound). I think this is not just due to the different music. It is also due to the training he receives, and to the interesting question of whether he is anticipating the music or just following it
.
A good conductor ALWAYS anticipates--if you watch, for example, Sir Simon Rattle conducting Mahler, you will see that his gestures are not results of the music but reasons, they are not consequences, they are causes. (That's why, for example, when Rattle does the Fidelio Overture, he is actually able to stretch out the final note of the opening theme at will, as a jazz musician improvising might).
So when Carol and Steve and others note that the boy is anticipating the music, I think they are picking up evidence that he is imitating a master. Note that he does much less of this when he is faced with a real orchestra. A few years ago we had a small children's orchestra from Melbourne here in Seoul, and as a crowd pleaser they invited toddlers from the audience to come up and conduct. They did, but the orchestra more or less ignored them.
Another interesting thing about this little boy's boisterous, nose-wiping rendition of the Fifth is that he has a very clear idea of where particular instruments are to be "found" (the strings are directly in front of the camera and the woodwinds are opposite the camera, just as they would be if Jonathan were conducting a real orchestra.
When we discussed music education on this list before, I noted that there are really three extant approaches here in Seoul, and they are by no means equal in the eyes of historico-cultural psychology. The Suzuki ("Mommy") method targets perceived "musicality", heavily emphasizes melody, and has rather romantic, aristocratic ideas about its origins (there is a pretty good description of the Suzuki method in Amy Chua's "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother", and we may assume that Mozart was a beneficiary (?) of this kind of musical training.
The Orff method, which really considers music as a form of "speech" in which DANCE represents thinking, is much more obviously democratic, but for the same reason it also posits a quite biological origin for musicality: the possession of arms and legs and the capacity for rhythmic motion is what makes us musical. Adorno says that dance is the content and music is the form: I think this is his way of saying that they co-evolved from some unity of both. Orff obviouisly believes the same thing (and so does Leontiev, in his paper on the development of voluntary attention in the child where he argues that music owes its origins to the desire to coordinate labor activity).
Only the Kodaly method (not actually developed by Kodaly but elaborated by Marxist educators in Hungary) emphasizes WRITTEN music over actually played music (and in fact children are urged to write music before they play it). Here, the essence of conducting, and een playing, is in literacy: conducting is not waving your arms in time to the music (that is really a form of dance) but something the public never actually sees ("OK--let's try that again. No, stop. The dynamics are not right. I want more strings and a LOT less brass. So shut up back there, will you? Try it again. NO!....")
Let me return to Ivan's coments on Salsa dancing, and the dancer he described for us who found his own bodily motions to be an unstable emulsion, a kind of oil and vinegar of learned motions and expressive motions which he was struggling to keep homogeneous.
I have been thinking of how the development (e.g.) semantic memory (that is, the memory of WHAT somebody says rather than HOW they said it, a memory of their MEANINGS rather than their mere soundings or wordings) develops.
Vygotsky and Lura say that it is an instance of a biological function (the "afterimage" of perception which is almost inseparable from the perception itself) being exapted (borrowed, restructured, and then wholly subordinated to) cultural function (viz, vocabulary, grammar, and discourse conventions).
But we cannot say, as Leontiev and even Vygotsky sometimes like to say, that there is no remainder; that if we take away the exapted biological memory from the mediated cultural memory then absolutely nothing is left at all. If that were true, there would be no such thing as idiolect, and idiolect is really an inseparable part of the art of everyday conversation.
David Kellogg
Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
a) As I said, the little boy doesn't interact with the camera very much, ven when the people behind the camera are talking to him. In my experience, children tend to interact with their interlocutors. more than this, unless theiir attention fixed by some other object.
From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
To: "Carol Macdonald" <carolmacdon@gmail.com>
Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Wednesday, October 26, 2011, 7:47 AM
Hi All
Or, look at some other You-tube clips about the same child. (Thanks to a
friend
who was seeking to answer the question I asked about how we might know more
about the presence or absence of a TV prompter).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yprmkCuyEWo&feature=related
A short video feature by Sean King (www.seananthonymedia.com) about Jonathan
Okseniuk's debut performance with Chamber Orchestra Kremlin, which took
place in the Torrance (CA) Arts Center in February 2011.
mike
On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com>wrote:
> Look carefully David and I think he is looking* into himself* a lot of the
> time. As Steve points out, he is also anticipating what comes next.
>
> Also, over centuries we have amazing examples of precosity (?sp) in music:
> would you deny Mozart his first concerto at 7? But I don't know if he was
> picking his nose as he wrote it...
>
> I myself am very musical and it was already apparent by the time i did my
> Grade 1 exam--and continued. Perhaps I should send you my interpretation of
> some of the slow movements of Beethoven's sonatoes :-)) Perhaps this is
> why I was so excited and also fall off my chair at the end when he loses his
> baton. I am already primed.
>
> But thank you for your detailed response: we have much to learn from it.
>
> Carol
>
> On 26 October 2011 04:50, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Any way to find out, David, about the other TV?
>> mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:49 PM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>
>> > I don't mean to throw cold water on the discussion, but if you observe
>> the
>> > boy very carefully, you notice some rather odd things.
>> >
>> > His audience (presumably mom and dad) are where the camera is. But for
>> the
>> > most part he is not looking in the direction of the audience, even when
>> they
>> > actually say things.
>> >
>> > For the most part, he is looking somewhere to the left of the camera.
>> > Sometimes he is looking there quite intently.
>> >
>> > So I think there is a TV monitor over there somewhere. He is probably
>> > watching a DVD of a professional performance of the symphony and he is
>> > imitating the conductor's movements, exaggerating theme here and there
>> (e.g.
>> > when he falls off the podium).
>> >
>> > This would explain how he manages to anticipate the instruments, and it
>> > also explains why he consistently prompts (e.g.) the strings in a
>> particular
>> > place, and why some of his movements appear to be his own, exuberant
>> > creations (as Ivan perceptively remarked) while others appear to be
>> those
>> > from the outside).
>> >
>> > Now, I am not raising this observation (which I think is correct) as a
>> > spoiler, or a dampener, or a hater. To me, the only thing it really
>> spoils
>> > is the idea that some musicality is inborn or inherent or culture-free
>> > (something I am always reminded of when Westerners who I grew up with
>> cannot
>> > seem to learn to love Chinese opera the way I do).
>> >
>> > Schweder remarks somewhere that three year olds in Orissa are very much
>> > like three year olds in America, while five year olds in Orissa are much
>> > like adults in Orissa and really very little like five year olds in
>> America.
>> > I think that this video shows that enculturation can be much more direct
>> and
>> > immediate (and early and incomplete) than this statement supposes.
>> >
>> > I remember reading an article by a recruiter for the Julliard who was
>> > responsible for scouting out preschoolers of "innate musicality". After
>> many
>> > years of trying to test for it and interview for it and so on she
>> concluded
>> > that there was really no such thing: it's a matter of loving the music
>> > enough to put up with the grinding and somewhat mindless practice that
>> > mastering it entails. It's much more romantic to believe in innate
>> > musicality (and also slightly aristocratic, when you think about it),
>> but
>> > there is really no scientific basis at all, not in this tape or any
>> where
>> > else that I can see.
>> >
>> > It seems to me that understanding the video as an instance of what
>> Vygotsky
>> > calls "imitation in a broad sense" (that is, imitation which involves an
>> > imitation of the ideal as well as the real, an understanding of the goal
>> as
>> > well as an understanding of concrete actions that go into the goal) only
>> > enhances the remarkable sense we get from it (by making it
>> understandable
>> > and reproducible and not just worthy of praise and envy).
>> >
>> > At the beginning of Vygotsky's essay on the prehistory of writing
>> (Chapter
>> > Eight of Mind in Society) Vygotsky complains that when children learn to
>> > read and write we sometimes pretend that when we have taught them the
>> > alphabet, our job is done "Children are taught to trace out letters and
>> > make words out of them, but they are not taught written language."
>> Interestingly,
>> > he continues his critique with a musical metaphor:******
>> >
>> > ** **
>>
>> >
>> > "This situation recalls the development of a technical skill such as
>> > piano-playing: the pupil develops finger dexterity and learns to strike
>> the
>> > keys while reading music, but he is in no way involved in the essence of
>> the
>> > music himself." (1978: 105-106)****
>> >
>> > ** **
>>
>> > I think Vygotsky would, like most people on this list (and certainly
>> like
>> > Ivan) say that this is a kid who is deeply involved in the essence of
>> the
>> > music. I notice that the daughter in law of the late great Carlo Maria
>> > Giulani says, in one of the many comments on the video, that the little
>> > boy's gestures suggests to her that the little boy might be a direct
>> > inheritor of her father in law's tradition. Actually, those words may be
>> > even truer than she supposes.
>> >
>> > David Kellogg
>> > Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On *Tue, 10/25/11, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] For the musicians
>> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:04 AM
>> >
>> >
>> > Its those same kinds of observations that evoke the idea of
>> perezhivanie, I
>> > suspect,
>> > Steve.
>> > mike
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:30 AM, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com
>> <http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>>
>> > >wrote:
>> >
>> > > Yes, Steve, that's exactly what he was doing, just like a conductor,
>> and
>> > he
>> > > is THREE! I have to say I have never sent a "topic" out and got so
>> many
>> > > responses.
>> > > Carol
>> > >
>> > > On 25 October 2011 12:59, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=stevegabosch@me.com>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > My personal experience of the video clip involved ways that watching
>> > the
>> > > > boy conductor enhanced my experience of this music, which I am very
>> > fond
>> > > of.
>> > > > I found myself reading his motions and listening to the music
>> through
>> > > his
>> > > > ears and body, especially places where he was anticipating changes -
>> > for
>> > > > example, the way he would increase the agitation of the baton and
>> his
>> > > arms
>> > > > as the music went from soft to loud in some of the great crescendo
>> > > moments,
>> > > > seeming to push the music forward and to greater heights with his
>> own
>> > > > determination and enthusiasm. A great reminder to listen to,
>> > appreciate
>> > > and
>> > > > truly feel music - and of the power of anticipation.
>> > > >
>> > > > - Steve
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Helen Grimmett wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hi again,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I put this link on my facebook page and Gloria Quinones commented
>> > > "That's
>> > > >> what I call perezhivanie!" I'd love for you to explain what you
>> meant
>> > by
>> > > >> that comment here Gloria - but it made me think not so much about
>> the
>> > > >> perezhivanie of the little boy, but about our perezhivanie as we
>> > watched
>> > > >> it.
>> > > >> As a musician, my previous experiences certainly gave me a unique
>> > > >> interpretation of what was going on which would not necessarily be
>> > > >> appreciated or understood in the same way by somebody who has never
>> > been
>> > > >> conducted or tried to conduct an orchestra, yet their own
>> experiences
>> > > and
>> > > >> expertise in other areas of life would no doubt lead to other
>> equally
>> > > >> interesting and emotionally stirring responses and interpretations.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Whose perezhivanie were you referring to Gloria? The boy's or
>> yours?
>> > I'd
>> > > >> love to hear about other people's perezhivanie (emotional
>> experience)
>> > as
>> > > >> you
>> > > >> watched it and how it is informed by your previous experiences
>> (with
>> > > >> music,
>> > > >> young children, videoing, having a runny nose in public, dropping
>> > > things,
>> > > >> being in hysterics, prodigies, performing etc, etc). What resonates
>> > with
>> > > >> you
>> > > >> and why? Maybe this might help us work out what we mean by
>> > perezhivanie?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Cheers,
>> > > >> Helen
>> > > >>
>> > > >> On 24 October 2011 17:01, Helen Grimmett <
>> helen.grimmett@monash.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=helen.grimmett@monash.edu>
>>
>> > >
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Priceless! It would be fascinating to know the story behind it. I
>> > could
>> > > >>> not
>> > > >>> believe how well he knows the music, and his facial expressions in
>> > the
>> > > >>> quieter, slower parts are just exquisite. Thanks for sharing
>> Carol.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Cheers,
>> > > >>> Helen
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> On 24 October 2011 15:30, Carol Macdonald <carolmacdon@gmail.com<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=carolmacdon@gmail.com>
>>
>> > >
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> This little boy is a savant: he actually know the whole movement.
>> > > Watch
>> > > >>>> carefully and you will see he is not *following* the music, but
>> > > >>>> orchestrating it. It doesn't say, but perhaps his father is a
>> > > >>>> conductor.
>> > > >>>> Interesting, because there is not such a strong developmental
>> > > >>>> line/critical
>> > > >>>> period for music, as most composers are highly precocious.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Enjoy it, it made my day. I hope it makes yours.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Carol
>> > > >>>> (P.S. He reminded us how old he is when he picked his nose!!!)
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> http://www.choralnet.org/view/**268945<
>> > > http://www.choralnet.org/view/268945>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> --
>> > > >>>> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
>> > > >>>> Carol's motto.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> *Visiting Lecturer
>> > > >>>> Wits School of Education
>> > > >>>> Research Fellow*
>> > > >>>> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
>> > > >>>> *
>> > > >>>> ______________________________**____________
>> > > >>>> _____
>> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
>> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> --
>> > > >>> Helen Grimmett
>> > > >>> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
>> > > >>> Faculty of Education
>> > > >>> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> Helen Grimmett
>> > > >> PhD Student, Teaching Associate
>> > > >> Faculty of Education
>> > > >> Monash University, Peninsula Campus
>> > > >> ______________________________**____________
>> > > >> _____
>> > > >> xmca mailing list
>> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > ______________________________**____________
>> > > > _____
>> > > > xmca mailing list
>> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Be mindful. Regret nothing.
>> > > Carol's motto.
>> > >
>> > > *Visiting Lecturer
>> > > Wits School of Education
>> > > Research Fellow*
>> > > *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
>> > > *
>> > > __________________________________________
>> > > _____
>> > > xmca mailing list
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>> http://us.mc1225.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>
>> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > >
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>> > _____
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>> >
>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Be mindful. Regret nothing.
> Carol's motto.
>
> *Visiting Lecturer
> Wits School of Education
> Research Fellow*
> *Linguistics Dept: Unisa
> *
>
>
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