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Re: [xmca] Cultural memory

That is a very interesting article Mike. Nonetheless, I raised cultural memory as a means to an end, and I suspect that the topic is not sufficient to achieve what I need. Over the deacades, Mike, you must have had many occasions to convince someone that artefacts which are products of a culture have an essential and not a secondary role in communication and social relations in general. What is your answer to 
"interactionism"?

Andy

mike cole wrote:

Is the work of Jim Wertsch of any relevance in this discussion?
I tripped over the following for those also following this thread with interest: 

http://www.collectivememory.net/2011/04/collective-memory-narrative-templates.html
On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: 

    Of course I know that song and voice are material artefacts, Tony.
    Indisputably, as you say.
    I realise that the distinction, if indeed a distinction can be
    made, between speech and forms of enduring artefact, is a
    secondary one, and not one of principle, the point is: how to
    explain to someone for whom "material" and "mediation" and
    "artefact" are not significant categories*? For most people,
    speech is something people do (which it is as well) and the fact
    that they draw on an existing language is "Oh well of course" but
    not an issue of any significance. If you want to communicate with
    someone you have to use a common language, of course. And if you
    move the topic to the prior existence of the common language, the
    response is that this common language was created in the same way,
    by people talking to each other (which of course it was) and the
    prior existence of something not created in the given interaction
    is never seen as essential to the situation. Infinite regress.

    Do you see my problem?

    Andy
    (And Derrida was just pulling our leg I think. Like Baudrillard
    saying the Gulf War never happened. I could never take that
    argument seriously.)
    * I thinik that for a lot of people "material" is something talked
    about only by dogmatic marxists or naive realists, while
    "mediation" is nothing to do with person-to-person interaction,
    and "artefact" is not significanly different from "natural."


    Tony Whitson wrote:

    Andy,

    Song, as you describe, is indisputably material -- but it is not
    a physical thing in the same sense as a flute or a song sheet. It
    seems to me you make your position unnecessarily vulnerable by
    treating materiality as more a matter of physicality than it
    needs to be (cf. the baseball examples).

    The Talmud example brings to mind Plato's objections to recording
    & transmission via writing (a bit ironic, no?, from the
    transcriber of Socrates' dialogues), which I would never have
    attended to but for Derrida, in D's treatment of the traditional
    prioritization of speech over writing. D's argument for
    "grammatology" is that speech itself is fundamentally a kind of
    "writing" first; but in a sense that I would say is material, but
    not necessarily physical.

    On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:


    Yes, I think it is the case that those currents of thinking that
    do not have "mediation" in their lexicon are just "quite
    different" and it may be, as Deborah suggested, a question of
    "agreeing to disagree". Probably, in the end it is the value of
    work produced by the different traditions of psychology which
    will tell. Within the bounds of philosophy, it may be irresolvable.

    I had thought of song in this way as well. It is not "enduring"
    in the same way as the song sheet or the flute, but song seems
    to have a visceral quality which plays the role of making things
    endure. The famous remark of a kid who was learning their times
    tables at school: "I know the tune, but I haven't learnt the
    words yet."

    Interesting point about the Talmud. I did not know about
    resistance to writing it down. What a great insight from that
    time. Hopefully they wrote it down! :) There is a lot o
    scripture which could certainly do with a bit of lived
    reinterpretation!

    Still thinking!

    Andy
    Helen Harper wrote:

    Hi Andy,
    It seems as if your sparring mate is conceptualising the
    process of 'transmission' in quite a different way from you, so
    it might be that you just end up seeing quite different things.
    But it might be relevant to the discussion to point out that
    even oral traditions are invariably formalised and
    'objectified' to some extent. All the oral cultures that I've
    ever encountered or read about use song cycles, chanting,
    special intonative patterns, repetition and other such
    metalinguistic tools. These tools can make the language
    'special' and worth transmitting; they are also more easy to
    repeat and presumably act as mnemonics. The special forms are
    found in high culture, but they're also found in everyday
    activities, particularly transmitting things to kids (what's
    often referred to as 'baby talk' in linguistics can involve
    some grammatical simplification, but also invariably involves
    an exaggeration of phonological patterns, lengthening of vowels
    etc - in short, a metalinguistic awareness that objectifies the
    language to some extent).

    There was an orally transmitted Jewish tradition - which later
    became written down and formalised as the Talmud. My
    understanding is that there was enormous resistance to writing
    it down (even though the literate tools existed) because the
    oral tradition was highly valued as a way ensuring that 'law'
    was seen as something to be discussed, interpreted and
    reinterpreted - i.e., it was required to be transmitted, but
    understood as something that needed to be constantly reinvented
    in order to be valid. But even this law still needed to be
    memorised and, as such, objectified.

    Probably no help to you, but helped me to think through the
    idea of 'maintaining culture by voice alone'.

    Helen



    On 18/10/2011, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:


    Well, I think that, even though I have a technical objection,
    this avenue does not offer me a definitive proof. Were I to
    rely on the argument that "a people removed from their land
    requires a written language in order to maintain their
    culture," then the Hmong people would offer a counterexample,
    even if the Jews did not, having the Old Testament, etc.

    I need another argument (if one exists) to show why cultural
    memory requires an enduring material culture, and the limits
    to what can be maintained by voice alone.

    thanks for that Eric.
    Andy

    ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:

    Andy:

    My understanding of how the Hmong written language was
    created was more for transmitting information from the public
schools to Hmong families that did not read english. However, now that the Hmong are into their second and even 
    third generation of living in St. Paul they do utilize this
    written language and it appears on shop windows and
    billboards, but still the most prominent place that I see it
    is in correspondence from the schools to families.

    eric



    From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
    To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
    <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
    Date:        10/17/2011 09:25 PM
    Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
    Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
    <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------




    So in this case of an indigenous people retaining cultural
    practices for
    a generation after being removed from their land, it turns
    out that they
    *created* a written language to do it!
    Andy

    ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
    > Yes, exactly the cultural practices are transmitted from
    adults to
    > children via the extremely strong ties to what has been
    practiced for
    > generations.  An example is that the Hmong have a very
    strong belief
    > in spirits and that bad luck befalls a family as a result
    of spiritual
    > unbalance in a family member or in the belongings of the
    family; many
    > cultural practices revolve around appeasing these "bad
    spirits", very
    > common to see Hmong children wearing strings tied around
    their wrists
> to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in spiritual balance. Also if a 
    > Hmong child is born with a disability then the family takes
    it on as
    > their personal burden and are very reluctant to seek
    outside assistance.
    >
    > It is also interesting that since the Hmong have lived in
    St. Paul for
    > 40 plus years now that a written language has emerged as a
    result of
    > schools efforts to illicit support from families in the
    educational
    > process.  However, it is interesting that Hmong cultural
    practices
    > believe that the child is sent to the expertise of the
    teacher and it
    > is not for the parents to interfere in the education of
    their child.
    >
    > By the way Clint Eastwood directed and starred in a
    fabulous movie
    > called "Grand Torino" that has a strong influence of Hmong
    culture
    > incorporated into the plot.
    >
    >
    > If this has already been posted to XMCA please forgive the
    double posting
    >
    > eric
    >
    >
    >
    > From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
    > To:        ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
    <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org>
    > Cc:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
    <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
    > Date:        10/17/2011 11:10 AM
    > Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
    > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
    <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
    >
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    >
    >
    >
    > Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you know *how* they do
    it? Is it just
    > by how they raise their children?
    > Andy
    >
    > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org <mailto:ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
    > > Hey Andy:
    > >
    > > I don't know if this is exactly in line with what you are
    thinking but
    > > in St. Paul there is a large population of Hmong
    (mountain people of
    > > Laos) that have transplanted here.  They did not have a
    written
    > > language but their cultural are still extremely strong
    (marriage at a
    > > young age, long drawn out funerals, tending animals (I
    have been to
    > > houses in St. Paul where chickens are kept in the house),
    gardening.
    > >  Is this along the lines of your thinking?
    > >
    > > eric
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
    <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
    > > To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
    <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
    > > Date:        10/14/2011 06:54 PM
    > > Subject:        [xmca] Cultural memory
    > > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
    <mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>
    > >
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a
    supporter of Robert
    > > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity
    Theorist. on the
    > > question of cultural memory.
    > >
    > > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does
    not theorise any
    > > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He
    supposes that norms
    > > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by
    word of mouth
    > > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity),
    and artefacts
    > > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no
    essential role
    > > in this.
    > >
    > > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
    > >
    > > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous
    people who
    > > managed to maintain their customs even after being
    removed from their
    > > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews,
    but of course
    > > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we
    had the same
    > > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I
    responded that I
    > > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without
    baseball bats,
    > > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other
    artefacts used in
    > > the game.
    > >
    > > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over
    generations
    > > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as
    well as tools,
    > > but allowing the spoken word)?
    > >
    > > Andy
    > > --
    > >
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    > > *Andy Blunden*
    > > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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    > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
    > > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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    > >
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    > --
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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    > *Andy Blunden*
    > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    > Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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    *Andy Blunden*
    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>

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    *Andy Blunden*
    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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    --
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    *Andy Blunden*
    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>

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    Tony Whitson
    UD School of Education
    NEWARK  DE  19716

    twhitson@udel.edu <mailto:twhitson@udel.edu>
    _______________________________

    "those who fail to reread
     are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
                      -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
    *Andy Blunden*
    Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
    <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
    Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
    <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>

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--
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*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857


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