Re: [xmca] Cultural memory

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Is the work of Jim Wertsch of any relevance in this discussion?

I tripped over the following for those also following this thread with
interest:

http://www.collectivememory.net/2011/04/collective-memory-narrative-templates.html

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 8:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> **
> Of course I know that song and voice are material artefacts, Tony.
> Indisputably, as you say.
> I realise that the distinction, if indeed a distinction can be made,
> between speech and forms of enduring artefact, is a secondary one, and not
> one of principle, the point is: how to explain to someone for whom
> "material" and "mediation" and "artefact" are not significant categories*?
> For most people, speech is something people do (which it is as well) and the
> fact that they draw on an existing language is "Oh well of course" but not
> an issue of any significance. If you want to communicate with someone you
> have to use a common language, of course. And if you move the topic to the
> prior existence of the common language, the response is that this common
> language was created in the same way, by people talking to each other (which
> of course it was) and the prior existence of something not created in the
> given interaction is never seen as essential to the situation. Infinite
> regress.
>
> Do you see my problem?
>
> Andy
> (And Derrida was just pulling our leg I think. Like Baudrillard saying the
> Gulf War never happened. I could never take that argument seriously.)
> * I thinik that for a lot of people "material" is something talked about
> only by dogmatic marxists or naive realists, while "mediation" is nothing to
> do with person-to-person interaction, and "artefact" is not significanly
> different from "natural."
>
>
> Tony Whitson wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
> Song, as you describe, is indisputably material -- but it is not a physical
> thing in the same sense as a flute or a song sheet. It seems to me you make
> your position unnecessarily vulnerable by treating materiality as more a
> matter of physicality than it needs to be (cf. the baseball examples).
>
> The Talmud example brings to mind Plato's objections to recording &
> transmission via writing (a bit ironic, no?, from the transcriber of
> Socrates' dialogues), which I would never have attended to but for Derrida,
> in D's treatment of the traditional prioritization of speech over writing.
> D's argument for "grammatology" is that speech itself is fundamentally a
> kind of "writing" first; but in a sense that I would say is material, but
> not necessarily physical.
>
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2011, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Yes, I think it is the case that those currents of thinking that do not
> have "mediation" in their lexicon are just "quite different" and it may be,
> as Deborah suggested, a question of "agreeing to disagree". Probably, in the
> end it is the value of work produced by the different traditions of
> psychology which will tell. Within the bounds of philosophy, it may be
> irresolvable.
>
> I had thought of song in this way as well. It is not "enduring" in the same
> way as the song sheet or the flute, but song seems to have a visceral
> quality which plays the role of making things endure. The famous remark of a
> kid who was learning their times tables at school: "I know the tune, but I
> haven't learnt the words yet."
>
> Interesting point about the Talmud. I did not know about resistance to
> writing it down. What a great insight from that time. Hopefully they wrote
> it down! :) There is a lot o scripture which could certainly do with a bit
> of lived reinterpretation!
>
> Still thinking!
>
> Andy
> Helen Harper wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
> It seems as if your sparring mate is conceptualising the process of
> 'transmission' in quite a different way from you, so it might be that you
> just end up seeing quite different things. But it might be relevant to the
> discussion to point out that even oral traditions are invariably formalised
> and 'objectified' to some extent. All the oral cultures that I've ever
> encountered or read about use song cycles, chanting, special intonative
> patterns, repetition and other such metalinguistic tools. These tools can
> make the language 'special' and worth transmitting; they are also more easy
> to repeat and presumably act as mnemonics. The special forms are found in
> high culture, but they're also found in everyday activities, particularly
> transmitting things to kids (what's often referred to as 'baby talk' in
> linguistics can involve some grammatical simplification, but also invariably
> involves an exaggeration of phonological patterns, lengthening of vowels etc
> - in short, a metalinguistic awareness that objectifies the language to some
> extent).
>
> There was an orally transmitted Jewish tradition - which later became
> written down and formalised as the Talmud. My understanding is that there
> was enormous resistance to writing it down (even though the literate tools
> existed) because the oral tradition was highly valued as a way ensuring that
> 'law' was seen as something to be discussed, interpreted and reinterpreted -
> i.e., it was required to be transmitted, but understood as something that
> needed to be constantly reinvented in order to be valid. But even this law
> still needed to be memorised and, as such, objectified.
>
> Probably no help to you, but helped me to think through the idea of
> 'maintaining culture by voice alone'.
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> On 18/10/2011, at 11:33 PM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>
> Well, I think that, even though I have a technical objection, this avenue
> does not offer me a definitive proof. Were I to rely on the argument that "a
> people removed from their land requires a written language in order to
> maintain their culture," then the Hmong people would offer a counterexample,
> even if the Jews did not, having the Old Testament, etc.
>
> I need another argument (if one exists) to show why cultural memory
> requires an enduring material culture, and the limits to what can be
> maintained by voice alone.
>
> thanks for that Eric.
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>
> Andy:
>
> My understanding of how the Hmong written language was created was more for
> transmitting information from the public schools to Hmong families that did
> not read english.  However, now that the Hmong are into their second and
> even third generation of living in St. Paul they do utilize this written
> language and it appears on shop windows and billboards, but still the most
> prominent place that I see it is in correspondence from the schools to
> families.
>
> eric
>
>
>
> From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> <ablunden@mira.net>
> To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date:        10/17/2011 09:25 PM
> Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> So in this case of an indigenous people retaining cultural practices for
> a generation after being removed from their land, it turns out that they
> *created* a written language to do it!
> Andy
>
> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > Yes, exactly the cultural practices are transmitted from adults to
> > children via the extremely strong ties to what has been practiced for
> > generations.  An example is that the Hmong have a very strong belief
> > in spirits and that bad luck befalls a family as a result of spiritual
> > unbalance in a family member or in the belongings of the family; many
> > cultural practices revolve around appeasing these "bad spirits", very
> > common to see Hmong children wearing strings tied around their wrists
> > to off evil or to keep their 'souls' in spiritual balance.  Also if a
> > Hmong child is born with a disability then the family takes it on as
> > their personal burden and are very reluctant to seek outside assistance.
> >
> > It is also interesting that since the Hmong have lived in St. Paul for
> > 40 plus years now that a written language has emerged as a result of
> > schools efforts to illicit support from families in the educational
> > process.  However, it is interesting that Hmong cultural practices
> > believe that the child is sent to the expertise of the teacher and it
> > is not for the parents to interfere in the education of their child.
> >
> > By the way Clint Eastwood directed and starred in a fabulous movie
> > called "Grand Torino" that has a strong influence of Hmong culture
> > incorporated into the plot.
> >
> >
> > If this has already been posted to XMCA please forgive the double posting
>
> >
> > eric
> >
> >
> >
> > From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> <ablunden@mira.net>
> > To:        ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org
> > Cc:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date:        10/17/2011 11:10 AM
> > Subject:        Re: [xmca] Cultural memory
> > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, that is interesting, Eric. Do you know *how* they do it? Is it just
> > by how they raise their children?
> > Andy
> >
> > ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
> > > Hey Andy:
> > >
> > > I don't know if this is exactly in line with what you are thinking but
> > > in St. Paul there is a large population of Hmong (mountain people of
> > > Laos) that have transplanted here.  They did not have a written
> > > language but their cultural are still extremely strong (marriage at a
> > > young age, long drawn out funerals, tending animals (I have been to
> > > houses in St. Paul where chickens are kept in the house), gardening.
> > >  Is this along the lines of your thinking?
> > >
> > > eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:        Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > To:        "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu><xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date:        10/14/2011 06:54 PM
> > > Subject:        [xmca] Cultural memory
> > > Sent by:        xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I need some help. I am having a discussion with a supporter of Robert
> > > Brandom, who was at ISCAR, but is not an Activity Theorist. on the
> > > question of cultural memory.
> > >
> > > One of my criticisms of Robert Brandom is that he does not theorise any
>
> > > place for mediation in his theory of normativity. He supposes that
> norms
> > > are transmitted and maintained down the generations by word of mouth
> > > (taken to be an unmediated expression of subjectivity), and artefacts
> > > (whether texts, tools, buildings, clothes, money) play no essential
> role
> > > in this.
> > >
> > > I disagree but I cannot persuade my protagonist.
> > >
> > > I challenged him to tell me of a (nonlierate) indigenous people who
> > > managed to maintain their customs even after being removed from their
> > > land. My protagonist responded by suggesting the Hebrews, but of course
>
> > > the Hebrews had the Old Testament. Recently on xmca we had the same
> > > point come up and baseball culture was suggested, and I responded that
> I
> > > didn't think baseball-speak could be maintained without baseball bats,
> > > balls, pitches, stadiums, radios, uniforms and other artefacts used in
> > > the game.
> > >
> > > Am I wrong? Can anyone point to a custom maintained over generations
> > > without the use of arefacts (including land and texts as well as tools,
>
> > > but allowing the spoken word)?
> > >
> > > Andy
> > > --
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857><http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
>
> > > <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857><http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
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> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857><http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>>
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> > >
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> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
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> <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857><http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>>
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> >
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> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/><http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
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> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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>
> Tony Whitson
> UD School of Education
> NEWARK  DE  19716
>
> twhitson@udel.edu
> _______________________________
>
> "those who fail to reread
>  are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
>                   -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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